HISTORICAL ACCURACY.

[Tuolumne Lawman]

I have been thinking about the issue of historical accuracy and the Spencer, etc.

I have several CW re-enactor friends, and they continuously refer to "stich Nazis."  One went to a re-enactment where ONLY 3 band .58 cal. muskets were allowed, even though it portrayed an early CW event! The reality is that in the early CW days, the variety of long arms, issue and non-issue, boggles the mind.  They were creating a "reality" that was not real, nor was it accurate.  Another talked about an event where only de-farbbed replica muskets (ones with moderm markings removed, and original markings and finish applied) were allowed.  Ugh!!!!!!

Take .44 Henries and Spencers in all their current calibers.  We have to accept them, as there in no rimfire to be found, except maybe a few rounds at $25 each.  Yes, I agree it would have been preferable to have no staple and ring on the Spencer Infantry rifles Armi Sport made.  There is more historical precedant for the staple and bar on a rifle, however, than a .44-40 model carbine!  As I stated in another thread, some 56-56 CW carbines were re-barreled as 56-50 infantry rifles after the war, and the staple and ring remained.

We must be careful to not try so hard for "reality" that we create a reality that did not exist, or rob ourself of enjoying as much of a reality that we can, even if it is centerfire instead of rimfire or has a staple and ring even though most didn't, etc.

If we were truely "realistic" WE WOULD EAT SOW BELLY, FATBACK, HARDTACK, AND WHITE BEANS.  We would all be skinny, gaunt, underfed, have disentary, scurvy,trench foot, and smell HORRIBLE!

Just my thjoughts as a High School US History Teacher and old west, Civil War enjoyer.

[Apache Jim]

The shooting hobbies and reenacting hobbies are two different animals.  It is usually not a problem until someone confuses the two.

[Tuolumne Lawman]

True, but often they do.  All of the CW re-enactors I know at CAS types also.

My point is that if we insist on ABSOLUTE realism in re-enacting (hand sewn with cotton thread of a certain weight, etc.), it should be in all, not just selective areas depending on the preferences of those in charge.  We should only allow real rimfires, wool underwear, real BP, no modern vocabulary. We must all be thin, hungry, sick: Absolute" means just that!


Granted, you don't want them walking around in rubber soled Russian or German combat boots, or a Cabelas BP holster, but let's be realistic.  All of the re-enactor's I know personally could do doctor's disertations on CW, but left because of stitch Nazis doing things like the "only 3 band" thing at an early CW event, creating an reality that never existed. 

I am not dictating to others what is right, I am only pointing out inconsistancies in some of the the re-enacting community that I have seen.

It is of no matter to me if someone only wants to shoot an originals, or prefers a Colt 2nd gen 1860 to an Uberti 1860 Colt.  That's what personal choice is about.  I choose not to be part of a re-enactment unit; but do it individually for school and scout living histories, etc., because I personally ran into a few stitch Nazis myself.

Just my humble opinion, and no offense intended. 

[Major 2]

It's funny you bring this up...
I spent some 28 years as a Mounted Cavalry Reenactor. I retired after the Vicksburg Campaign Event in 01.
In those years, I saw, for instance saddles, in the 70's the only thing going was a 1904 McClellan stripped and you rebuilt it yourself as a "1859".
Later, Doug Kidd , David Carrico and some others made their living building correct "59"s but having to use reproduction trees made to fit fatter modern horses.

I remember, early on the infantry had only Enfields ( they were not allowed the use of plentiful 2 band Rifles because of rank firing issues)
or original Springfields as no or few Springfields were being made.

Good Buttons were hard to find, and uniform makers were few... I was pleased to see more and more obscure products tooling up.


But the hobby grew and now today one can literally can walk sutlers row at a good event with nothing but fat wallet and walk out the other side fully equipped for a good impression.
We have the vast growth of reenacting , CAS, Living Historians, and their $$$ to thank

There have always been farbs & and authentic's , However , now there also main-streamers, progressives and the * Hardcore ( your " EAT SOW BELLY, FATBACK, HARDTACK, AND WHITE BEANS,  skinny, gaunt, underfed, have disentary, scurvy,trench foot, and smell HORRIBLE fellows ! "

De-farbing a Gun was common (I did it many times for myself and others) I carried an original Emerson & Silver 1860 saber, my buttons and buckles
were original. But my uniforms, the blue and gray ones were made with modern wools and and I did not worry myself on stitch count.
They were correct, but maybe not nazis correct ,but then they were $250 each not $600 each  and around horses , I wanted it that way.

[St. George]

If you'd like an outsider's perspective on 'true' historical accuracy mania from the Civil War reenactor's viewpoint - read Tony Horowitz' book - 'Confederates In the Attic'.

The author follows a truly hardcore Conffederate unit as it goes through its paces and in there, you'll see how a fairly 'benign' hobby can become an obsession to some and how those can both add to an event and yet damage the hobby.

Interesting...

The thing is - from my own viewpoint - with good research - without leaping in and buying on impulse - with asked questions answered - the entire thing can be far more affordable and yet be 'right' as far as being true to the times.

Better to start slow and be 'trying' - than to cobble something together that you're not confident of and when the time comes to spend the money - pay for quality, since it'll repay you with honest service life.

Be proud of your Impression, by all means -  but not so proud that you stop helping folks with their own - because if you stop doing that - then you've become the thing you probably dreaded when you began.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[Major 2]

"Be proud of your Impression, by all means -  but not so proud that you stop helping folks with their own - because if you stop doing that - then you've become the thing you probably dreaded when you began."

In two lines, St. George said what I tried to....

[Tuolumne Lawman]

I like that!

I guess in simple terms, I do not begrudge a person their obsessions.  I am certaily obsessed with Spencers<g>.  I only begrudge those whose obsessions become unreasonably oppressive to others, thus ruining it for those others.

[Steel-eye Steve]

I remember, early on the infantry had only Enfields ( they were not allowed the use of plentiful 2 band Rifles because of rank firing issues)
or original Springfields as no or few Springfields were being made.

Actually, I think rank firing safety  is the real reason for the 3 band only rule not "Stitch-Nazis". Two banders are too short to be safely fired from back ranks.

[Tuolumne Lawman]

Your right about slow.  I have accumulated the following over the last two years.

I talked with re-enactors, collected information about Sutler's (Mercury, S&S, Fall Creek, Brigade, Blockade Runner, etc). 

First I got basic britches, sky blue wool, US made.  A simple 4 button sack coat, dark blue wool, US made.  A basic McDowell forage cap, US made.  As for leather:  Blockade runner.  Nice Gaylord stamped Holster, two piece front cap pouch, Pistol cartridge box and Carbine cartridge box.  Next will be an 1858 NCO/Officer's sabre belt.  I have one from Cabelas that will do for now, but could be better. I think it was made by Pacific Ordnance, so its pretty decent.  My Henry sling and carbine sling and snap hook are from S&S.

All of the above, maybe $350-400

[LazyK Pejay]

Tuolumne,

Thx for your post. There has also been much flap about steel wooled barrels vs. Enfield blued. I had to laugh. You left out from your list of foods and health that to re-inact one needs a good case of lice

LazyK Pejay

[Tuolumne Lawman]

And let's not forget the chiggers.  Oh, and a BADDDD rash in the "nether regions"!!!!!!  Wool is VERY hot in the summer.

[Major 2]

Actually, I think rank firing safety  is the real reason for the 3 band only rule not "Stitch-Nazis". Two banders are too short to be safely fired from back ranks.

well that was my point (safety reasons ) Same reason, We as Cavalry would not allow Shotguns ( all to many Damascus sawed off's a and over charging )

I'd hate to know what I spent over nearly 30 years... tens of thousands easily , I still have my horses, then there were trucks, trailers...
and impressions from 2nd. Dragoon to trooper (both persuasions not to mention eastern and western impressions) to Cavalry Officer (again both) as Commander of 2nd Florida Cavalry Inc. , Firearms you bet....
I did war of 1812 , Texas Independence and later Tex /Mex , there was  Creek Indian Wars in Ga. & Seminole War in Florida.

I towed horses from Florida to Texas, Penn, Virginia, Ill , Missouri & Kentucky just about every state in between.
and along the way some 20 Films.

Pards include many Sutlers @ ... BorderStates Leather ,Carrico Leather, Fall Creek, Lomas Brothers, Jarnigans, Kissimmee River Depot & Yakama Tent Co.
I spent many of my dollars & even more Film Production Dollars with them....

We trained and help educate, safety and authenticity were paramount... and still there are the YAHOO'S.
I loved every minute of it (but there comes a time) .....



http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b363/major101/Fl2ndatOlustee2.jpg

[The Yankee Bandit]

I used to do WWII reenacting and experienced the same thing with stitch Nazis.  For some reason, many of the reenactors seemed to think that every piece of fabric on a uniform and gear should match and it should be the exact same color as Tom Hank's uniform on Saving Private Ryan. 

The truth is the government had hundreds of companies making hundreds of different items, with just a vague description of what the color Khaki should be.  Original items range in color from a light gray to tan to brown to green and everything in between.  Also, about 2/3's of the way into the war, the government switched to olive drab, so there was a lot of khaki and OD mixed colored gear.  Then some gear a soldier might wear could be Khaki, some OD and some mixed, plus there was plenty of gear from WWI mixed in as well.

Plus there are plenty of pictures of different branches of the military wearing another branch's gear.  Infantry with paratrooper boots on, sailors with the Air Forces's shearling jackets, etc.  But you sure couldn't get away with that at a reenactment.

Besides the craziness of fighting, war is crazy in the production and supply.  The stitch Nazis seem to think that a soldier is issued a pair of pants, then gets to walk through the warehouse till he finds a shirt that matches.  Then they get the ammo belt and get to find the exact color match to it, then the match to the canteen cover, then the match to the shovel cover, etc.  Then when new gear or gear of a different color is made, each soldier is stripped of all old gear and gets to start again.

The perfection and obsession, of the stitch Nazis is the ultimate farb!!!

[Two Flints]

Hi,

Been looking through the Marcot book, and from 1865 to 1874, the Springfield Armory did repairs and alterations to Spencer Carbines that included a 32" Springfield barrel replacing the 20" Spencer Carbine barrel.  Many of these guns "retained the original carbine ring and bar on the left side of the frame, a rather unusual feature for a rifle."  Quote from the Marcot book.

Just thought I'd contribute to the "historical accuracy" thread. 

Two Flints

[Harve Curry]

Back in the late 1980's and early 1990's I was doing 1938-1940 cavalry in Tucson. About a dozen of us would perform at Ft.Lowell Park. I was low man in the troop and usually led the pack horse equipped with Phillips pack saddle and a 1917 Browning which I enjoyed. We were standing with our horses when an old man in a wheel chair called out to me "you got leather linings on those leggings".  I was lucky because I'd just found a pair at a gun show. So I was able to say "yes". But it was neat to meet veterans of horse cavalry and be "inspected".

[Fox Creek Kid]

The alterations are also two band & not three band if I remember correctly. Also, the barrel length was different & they were in all effect probably never issued.

[Arizona Trooper]

They were actually made to order for Remington, who had a standing order for US "Standard Issue" rifles from France for the Franco-Prussian war. Thomas Poultney, of Smith Carbine fame, acted as broker, so that Springfield could deny to Congress that they were making arms for Remington, who were widely known to be buying for France and thus dodging US neutrality. In a weird series of events, the Spencers, along with many thousands of M-1866 Springfields, CW carbines and Remington Rolling Blocks, wound up in German hands after France lost, and finally were reimported by Hartley & Graham (known as Schuller, Hartley & Graham in the Civil War). None of the Springfield Spencer two banders ever served in the US military. Also, these were all made on Burnside contract M-1865 carbines. 

[Mark Headlee]

All,

I have been involved in living history and re-enacting for 25 years and consider myself and "authentic" and possibly a "hardcore" type. I obsess over stitching, material types, correct patterns, ect...because thats what I want to get out of the hobby. I'll never begrudge anyone for choosing their own path in this "hobby"....remember it is a hobby. I'll try to tell folks that wearing a cowboy hat while portraying a Confederate soldier is not correct, but if they choose to wear it, thats their choice.

I associate with folks of a like mind and have been turned off likewise. Each person should get out of this what they want to invest. We all learn something from each other, reguardless of to what level you want to go.

As far as the two banders.....did the safety issue concern the soldiers of the 1860's. If done correctly, you can shoot a 2-bander in two ranks just as safe as a 3 band rifle. I doubt the units that carried such rifles as the 1841 were kept out of the fight due to safety concerns.....

Just the thoughts of someone new to SAS....

Mark Headlee
Lamar, Colorado