Lyman BP Handbook 2nd Ed. and the 44-40

Bryan Austin · November 16, 2009, 05:21:08 PM

200gr lead bullet

Various powders (FF, FFF) between 30 and 34gr/v. Pressures between 5,000 and 7,000 CUP

Basically half of the max CUP for the 44-40.

fourfingersofdeath · November 17, 2009, 04:44:27 PM

34Gns, just about as much as you can fit in most cases isn't it?

Bryan Austin · November 17, 2009, 04:49:25 PM

So exactly how much powder fills the balloon head space of original 44 WCF cases??

6gr?

Wills Point Pete · November 17, 2009, 08:10:52 PM

Jack, it depends on how much you want to compress the charge. When I was a kid we managed to find quite a bit of old ammo from tearing down old barns, houses, bunkhouses and line camp cabins. We shot all of it we could find the shootin' irons for, having never heard of cartridge collection. Some of 'em didn't go off, oddly not many. We broke down quite a few rounds, some the powder was barely compressed, some was stuffed so tightly it was a solid cake all the way through.

Do not believe that you can't put forty grains ahint a 200 grain .44WCF bullet, or a 250 grain in .45 Colt. You can. It takes some work but you can. The rounds go BOOM!, too. Now, I contend that it ain't really worth the effort but it can be done and it isn't particularly difficult, just tedious. My little experiments with a home made compression die an .45 Colt got me to 40 grains of powder, a thin card wad and the bullet. But it wasn't that much more velocity than 35 grains which went in without messing with the compression die. And I'm one of those heretics that doesn't mind using that newfangled fad stuff if I want more velocity than the original powder gives me.

Pulp · November 17, 2009, 08:36:41 PM

What really boggles the mind is there is one old Lyman smokeless manual that suggest a load that gives 2000fps. Mike Venturino wrote about duplicating the load, but it is so hard on brass that it ain't worth it.

fourfingersofdeath · November 18, 2009, 04:53:46 AM

Quote from: Pulp on November 17, 2009, 08:36:41 PM
What really boggles the mind is there is one old Lyman smokeless manual that suggest a load that gives 2000fps. Mike Venturino wrote about duplicating the load, but it is so hard on brass that it ain't worth it.

Thats one of the reasons a lot of shooters poo poo teh old 44WCF. They see a case bigger than the 44 Mag and get a big sickly grin on their dials and no amount of warning them will stop them from trying to whomp the 44Mag. Case separations, etc ensue. Then they bad mouth the cartridge! Go figure.

Safe loads are still plenty powerful and aren't too bad to shoot to boot! The pigs don't have to be told they been shot, heck, they know straight away. I'm looking forward to whistling up dogs soon with my old 1866 with a pure lead Mav Dutchman and as much Black as I can stuff in the case. Should turn them stock killers inside out!

Dick Dastardly · November 18, 2009, 08:30:10 AM

Good black powder loads won't hurt a sound 44-40. Trying to hot rod that caliber, or most other old black powder calibers, will lead to more good guns being destroyed not to mention the injury or death possibilities that go along with an explosive accident.

So, load the caliber as was intended and forget the testosterone dementia. There's plenty of enjoyment, BOOM, flames and smoke just the way the 44-40 was made without trying to duplicate modern high intensity calibers. FWIW, I shoot 44 Magnum and am very happy to load "down" to 44-40 pressures and pretend I'm shooting PC bp ammo and guns. I call my caliber "Extra Long Russian". Going that way is safe. Going tall with the venerable 44-40 has been proven many times not to be.

Yes, a custom gun could be made and chambered for 44-40 cartridges that would safely approximate 44 Magnum pressures. Custom dies would also be needed. When it's all done the only way to get 44 Magnum performance would to make ammo that would be unsafe in all the other guns out there that are chambered for 44-40. So, what would be the point? The work would be a death trap waiting for some unsuspecting shooter later on down the trail.

DD-DLoS

Pulp · November 18, 2009, 09:21:17 AM

I've got a deer load that gives me 1400fps through my '92, using 5744. That's as far as I want to push it. The sad thing is I've not found any deer to test it on. Maybe this year. I would not shoot that load in a toggle link, nor in my SAA.

w44wcf · November 18, 2009, 04:45:16 PM

Quote from: Savvy Jack on November 17, 2009, 04:49:25 PM
So exactly how much powder fills the balloon head space of original 44 WCF cases??
6gr?

Only 2 grains based on the testing I've done.

Early factory .44-40 b.p. cartridges that I have dissected had
.20" - .24" of compression depending on the bullet used....200 or 217 gr.

That's how they fit 40 grs. of b.p. into the .44-40 cartridge.

w44wcf

Bryan Austin · November 18, 2009, 05:45:32 PM

Quote from: w44wcf on November 18, 2009, 04:45:16 PM
Only 2 grains based on the testing I've done.

Early factory .44-40 b.p. cartridges that I have dissected had
.20" - .24" of compression depending on the bullet used....200 or 217 gr.

That's how they fit 40 grs. of b.p. into the .44-40 cartridge.

w44wcf

I do notice that 30gr of goex ff is 5,300 cup and 31gr of goex FFF is 7,000 cup. Either are "lighter loads" (not "light" loads) in my book! However, 40gr of goex FFF vs 40gr of FF probably produce a greater distance between cup numbers huh?

In other words, I wonder what the difference in max CUP between 40gr of goex ff and 40gr of goex fff