Need ID help

[shortround]

Spencer Repeating Rifle
Serial number 13633

Barrel is 32" from breech face to muzzle.
No markings found on barrel.
Front sight is typical of era. Rear sight is fixed.
Bore is 6 groove and measures .452".
Chamber is for a bottleneck type cartridge.
Caliber appears to be 56/46.
Butt stock and forearm appear to be from same lot of wood.
Forearm is of carbine style, but does not appear to be of Spencer sporting rifle style due to lack of forearm tip. Forearm attaches to barrel with single screw in rear and drive pin in the front.
Left side of stock has a flat bar where the saddle ring would normally be. Saddle ring bar appears to have been modified by removing the ring extension. Rivets/pin that may have held the saddle ring are still present. The butt stock has been repaired. The upper butt plate screw is of the proper era. Two lower screws are present. One is a late 1800's style; the other is more recent, guessing early 1900's? The butt stock has a brass plate with the name Will Wheeler scratched in it. It originated in South Dakota where it had sit in a closet for80 odd years.

[Two Flints]

Hi shortround,

First of all, thanks for joining SSS.

I checked on your Spencer rifle serial # 13633. None of the serial #s I have read, both before and after 13633 show a Spencer rifle listed.  Only carbines.  Is it possible that your rifle has a "new longer barrel" installed, instead of the shorter, original carbine barrel?  The closest serial # to your 13633 in my SRS books is #13656, a carbine issued to a member of Co I, 3rd Michigan Volunteer Cavalry, on or about May, 1865.

Wish I could give you more information.

Two Flints

[Arizona Trooper]

I think you have a sporting rifle made from a carbine. A Spencer made sporting rifle in 56-46 would not have have a carbine sling ring plate in the stock wrist. The the action M-1860 or the later, slimmer M-1865 type? There were a lot of very nice sporting rifles made from surplus Spencers. Sounds like this is one of them.

[Herbert]

have you checked along the top of the barell,wen converted the gunsmith ofton put there name there,somtimes this is hard to see

[shortround]

Herb, as of now, I see no markings on the barrel. I've been doing some very light cleaning without removing any of the natural aging. Looking at it with loupes and good lighting and still nothing.
AzTrooper, my guess is that it is a M1860 action. What is the difference between the two? The plate looks original, just without the sling ring plate. Was the sling ring plate made up of two pieces riveted together? If so, then rivets are showing on the back (inside) portion.
TwoFlints, I'm leaning toward what you came up with. The forearm has a small retaining pin, ~ 1/8" diameter, holding the front of the forearm to the barrel. What type hardware attached the forearm to the barrel?

shortround out

[Herbert]

1860 modle has a smooth magizine base,other have grooves in base,1860 frame has sharp edges on frame opening at top ,others are rounded off ,springfild converted 1860 carbines will have cutoff and slot for cutoff in lower block, the back sights are difrent 1860 modle has a wide sholow V at top of lader others lader top is rounded with small V in top,when you take forend off is there a number or markings there,factory sporting barells were marked,what dose the front sight look lick,some of these gunsmith conversions will have a mix of spencer and gunsmith made parts ,depending on maker they can be vary sort after

[shortround]

Herbert, it does have the smooth magazine base. The frame openings are sharp. The lower block and frame have not been modified. The rear sight is not adjustable and is dovetailed into the barrel. It is of a semi buckhorn style with a shallow rectangular notch cut into the bottom. The front sight is dovetailed into the barrel and is a rounded inverted V on top of a rounded rectangular base.

Something I didn't mention is that the barrel has a "cleaning rod holder" from the forearm tip to the muzzle. However, there are no provisions for thimbles to hold a cleaning rod. It is fastened to the barrel with a series of pins/rivets. The barrel has a straight taper from the breech to the muzzle. However, there is a "rounded ring" approximately 1/8" wide and high at the rear of the barrel where it screws into the breech. The block has a knife like extractor on the left side and the ejector? on the centerline of the block is of the narrow style.

More info to follows as it develops.

Shortround out

[Two Flints]

Shortround,

One photo is worth a thousand words

One photo is worth a thousand words 

One photo is worth a thousand words, and in this case many good clear photos would be of great help in this thread.  If you are unable to post them, Email them to me as attachments at fsgrand2@fairpoint.net and I will add them to your posts.

Two Flints

[Arizona Trooper]

Here are a couple shots to show the differences between an M-1860 and M-1865. The M-1860 is at the bottom. The top Spencer is actually a New Model carbine with a Spencer magazine cutoff, but the frame is the same as an M-1865. (This one actually started life as an M-1865 rifle).




                                     (Photos re-posted by Two Flints)
The things to look for.

Lever sides flat, M-1860. Rounded '65. (Either lever will fit either model, so some have been swapped over the years.)
Frame around the lever pivot screw rounded, M-1860. Distinct edge where the frame side flat area ends, '65.  
Hammer nose full width, M-1860. Side of hammer nose rounded to match frame, '65 (again, either hammer fits either model, so swaps are a possibility.)
Top view, sharp edges on frame around breechblock opening, usually M-1860. Some '60s were rounded when they were sleeved to 50 caliber (these carbines will have 22" 50 caliber barrels with 3 groove rifling). Opening rounded on the sides, M-1865, or Springfield update.

Thick sides on frame, M-1860. Thinner sides, M-1865.

Hope that helps.  

[Herbert]

Arizona Trooper i see your NM carbine has been drilled for tang sight,you say it started life as a rifle,would it be posible to post more photos especily of the left side atachment of carbine sling bar atachment and style of extractor

[Colt Fanning]

Hi Arizona Trooper,
Could you Mic. the thickness of the receiver sides of the 1860 and 1865 Spencer.
This might be the most diagnostic test of an 1860 vs an 1865 receiver.
Regards
Colt

[Colt Fanning]

Hi,
I have an original Spencer carbine, Serial number 13906.  It was looked up by Two Flints to be an 1860 issued in May 1864.
The magazine tang is 1860.  The hammer is 1860.  The receiver around the pivot hole is rounded (1860).  The top edge
around the breech block is also rounded (1865).  The barrel is 18 in. and is stamped 1865.  The sight is 1865.
Why is the the top edge rounded when the rest of the receiver appears to be an 1860?  There is no Magazine cutoff.
Regards
Colt Fanning

[Herbert]

the 1860 spencers with the rounded top openings as in picture springfild repaired carbines ,they should have a cutoff though often mising, the hamer nose should be tapered off to be the same width as the frame opening for the hamer( hamers can be replaced) barell would originaly be a relined 22 inch 1860 barell,when these needed repairs they were somtimes replaced with a 20 inch 1860 barell with 1860 sightss spencers will often be found with a mismash of parts made up well after they were outdated to be sold as usfull cheep guns and to get rid of large quinties of surplas parts ,both by big dealers ( banamans & others)and local gunsmiths,without pictures it is hard to pin down origin,olso a serial number 13906 can match 1860 carbine 1865 carbine 1865 burncide carbine spencer carbine,as there last two had there own seprate serial number rang 1865 up to 18959,burnside up to about33909

[Arizona Trooper]

Here's the receiver measurements.

M-1860: Back of flat 1.05" width, front of flat where the barrel screw in, 1.265"
M-1865: Back of flat 1.00" width, front of flat where the barrel screw in, 1.175"

On the strange New Model carbine, here are a couple shots of the sling ring installation. The rifle receiver was notched for the ring bar, but no flat was inletted (that's how I know it started as a rifle). The buttstock is from an M-1860 carbine and was refinished at Springfield (ESA cartouche over the old ones). It has a good bit of sling wear showing, so it was in the field after its trip to the National Armory. Also note that the lever and frame are government inspected (both stamped "H").  At one time, I had an M-1865 rifle around number 2300, and it was fully government inspected.

I suspect that this one was put together as an armory mule from parts laying around Tremont Street. The lower breechblock was made as an M-1865, later updated to the Lane extractor and then updated again to the short blade New Model extractor. The barrel is perfectly crowned and has a couple of all but invisible filled dovetails on the bottom. Then there's the tang sight holes. The front one goes through the first number of the serial number, leaving 440. Under the barrel, 2440 is struck out and 440 stamped beside it.

It's an odd bird, but a great shooter!



                                           (Photos reposted by Two Flints)

[Herbert]

very interesting carbine,shows nothing is set in stone when it comes to later modle spencers,how dose the short blade extractor work is egection as good as the long blad one,23000 would be in the 1865 range,i made a mistake of going of the number of 1865 carbines delivered to US 18959, there were a further 4000 made probly the canidian 1865 rifles in batches so serial numbers can be 1 to 24000,the filled in dovetails sugest it may have been a sporting rifle barell at one time,early one before sporting rifles got there own numbers

[Colt Fanning]

Thanks for the measurement AT.  This establishes my Spencer as an 1865 despite the absence of a
Magazine cutoff and some 1860 parts.
Regards
Colt Fanning