???s 'Bout lead - to be used with BP, of course

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Howdy!

I have a number of questions/issues regarding lead.

I know that lead, and wheelweight lead alloys - get harder over time.  I have heard in the 1 to 2 months time-frame.  I have a couple of ingots of supposedly pure plumbers lead. (marked "Imperial" but that simply means that an ingot mould marked "Imperial" was used  )  This stuff has been stored outside in the weather and feels VERY hard.  I tested the hardness using my Cabine Tree Hardness Tester and got a reading of .090-.092" which corresponds to 23-24 Brinnell, or quenched wheelweight alloy.

My question:  If it IS pure lead and simply hard because of the years of storage outdoors, will re-smelting it turn it back to its' pure, softer state?

(If not, then no problem - I'll simply add pure lead until I get it where I want - or about the hardness of 20-1, which is what I'm getting now.)

Where's the best place to get Tin?  I haven't found any locally.  Midway is $30/2 lbs + shipping.

[Springfield Slim]

It's not pure. When you cast a bullet that contains antimony they will harden a bit over time. Pure lead is pure and it won't change from just sitting around. 22 is harder than wheelweights, sounds more like linotype.  How did you test it, melt some down and measure a bullet, or did you measure the ingot?

[Steel Horse Bailey]

It's not pure. When you cast a bullet that contains antimony they will harden a bit over time. Pure lead is pure and it won't change from just sitting around. 22 is harder than wheelweights, sounds more like linotype.  How did you test it, melt some down and measure a bullet, or did you measure the ingot?

I measured the ingot.  Are you familiar with the Cabine Tree product?  I was going by the supplied chart.  Linotype is the one before the listing on their chart.

Here it is in action:

http://www.castingstuff.com/lt2.JPG

And their website:

http://www.castingstuff.com/cabinetree_loading_products.htm

And their cross reference chart:

http://www.castingstuff.com/tester_hardness_cross_reference.htm

[Noz]

My method is truly high tech. If I can scratch it deeply with my thumbnail it's soft enough to use. If not it goes in the bullet bucket rather than the round ball bucket.  If I have a doubt, I assume it's too hard.

[Ranch 13]

Personaly its my belief that the hoopla over lead changing hardness over time is just silliness. The alloy is what it is and its not changing unless you melt it down and add ingredients enough to change the composition.

Best place to get tin is probably www.rotometals.com

[Cactus Rope]

I measured the ingot.  Are you familiar with the Cabine Tree product?  I was going by the supplied chart.  Linotype is the one before the listing on their chart.

Here it is in action:

http://www.castingstuff.com/lt2.JPG

And their website:

http://www.castingstuff.com/cabinetree_loading_products.htm[/u

And their cross reference chart:

[url=http://www.castingstuff.com/tester_hardness_cross_reference.htm]http://www.castingstuff.com/tester_hardness_cross_reference.htm

Jeff,
Now yer jest gettin to durned teknickel. 

So, how you been feelin?

Bob Little

[hellgate]

Mr. Bailey, Here's a post i saved from a while ago because the subject
keeps coming up:

Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 01:20:56 -0400 (EDT)
From: HellgateTy@aol.com (Hellgate Tye)
Subject: Testing lead hardness w/ artists pencils

To lead scroungers everywhere,
I think I got this info off the black powder or mlml list 1-2 years ago. I
would like to thank whoever originally posted it and offer my apology for
losing the original credits.
You can go to an art supply store and get a set or select individual pencils
whose core varies from [softest] 9B,>>>1B, HB, F, 1H, >>>9H[hardest]. Lead
will run about 4B or 5B, depending on purity, and linotype will run about HB,
or F. The hardest pencils will test aluminum alloys and are too hard for
lead. About 6 to 8 pencils will cover the range needed for informal casting.
To use, shave the wood away to expose the "lead" core without cutting into it
with the knife exposing 1/8-1/4". Hold the pencil vertical and sand the end
flat on fine (about) 400 grit sandpaper. Hold the pencil in a normal writing
position, and try to push the lower edge into the lead surface. If the
graphite core is harder than the alloy, it will cut into the metal or at
least seriously scratch it. If the metal is as hard  or harder than the
graphite core, it will not be able to gouge. The hardness is ranked as the
hardest graphite core that will NOT cut in. If your bullet is resistant to
pencils from 6B through 2B, but B scratches it or peels up a small shaving,
the hardness is 2B.
This isn't as exact as a Brinnel tester but cost effective enough for me. You
can reproduce your hardness but not necessarily the same cost, or castability
but all I want to know is whether it is REAL HARD, sorta hard, somewhere in
between, soft, and REAL SOFT (i.e. Smokeless rifle lead, smokeless pistol, 38
special lead, and 2 grades of black powder lead). I bought 8 pencils: H, HB,
B, 2B, 3B, 4B, 5B, & 6B.  I found that my various ingots of lead were not
sorted  so well once I pencil tested them. Wheelweights and MY BLEND of #2
alloy are about 2B and my soft cap&ball lead is 4B&5B. Be sure to use a fresh
surface as some of the heavier grey corrosion will resist the pencil core but
the underlying lead will scratch.

Hellgate(helpful hints department)Tye SASS#3302

[Montana Slim]

S.H.B.

I'm not familiar with the tester you've used. However, if it is measuring the softness/hardness at the surface, you could get a false indication. As you mention the ingots have been stored outside for some time, the surface has oxidized. The oxidized lead is harder than the base metal. I suggest digging in a bit. If it were my chunk, I'd chisel, cut or chop a hunk off, melt in my ladle and cast a round ball or two and load in one of my percussion revolvers. My hands can tell a less than pure RB quite readily while working the rammer & I'll bet you can too.

Regards,
Slim

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Jeff,
Now yer jest gettin too durned teknickel. 

So, how you been feelin?

Bob Little

I'm feelin' better'n I have in a couple years, thanks!  How long this'll last, well ...

I'm enjoying it while I can.

Thanks for remembering!

Mr. Bailey, Here's a post i saved from a while ago because the subject
keeps coming up:

Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 01:20:56 -0400 (EDT)
From: HellgateTy@aol.com (Hellgate Tye)
Subject: Testing lead hardness w/ artists pencils

To lead scroungers everywhere,
I think I got this info off the black powder or mlml list 1-2 years ago. I
would like to thank whoever originally posted it and offer my apology for
losing the original credits.....

Hellgate(helpful hints department)Tye SASS#3302

Thanks, pard!  I remember this post because I printed it and have it in my "Casting Notes & Hints" notebook!  (Hope you don't mind)  I did try this, and when I did MY part right, it gave good reports.  I guess I'm a bit to ham fisted, 'tho - I seemed to break the "lead" B-4 getting a good reading.  Since I still have most of the pencils (do ya know it can be a real challenge to get all that are needed when ya don't have a good old-tyme ( ) art supply store!) I might check the method against my gee-whiz hardness tester.

Thanks for posting this, Hellgate.  It's a good method for them who haven't seen it posted before.

[Springfield Slim]

I'm kinda like NOZ. When I go to buy scrap lead I just use my trusty Swiss army knife. I stick the point in and twist and "measure" the resistance. I can tell pure from wheelweights from linotype. I always use the same knife for consistency. I do this to my casting lead all the time to keep up my
"feel" for it. I have a LBT lead hardness tester that works very well on bullets, but it is not designed for ingots. too many bumps and craters on ingots for it to be accurate. Another good test is to just drop those ingots on our concrete garage floor. Pure lead will "thunk", wheelweights will ping a little and real hard leads really rings out.

[Noz]

Another rough test is to drop a roundball on concrete. Hard lead will bounce, soft will not.

[Dalton Masterson]

Yep, I do the bounce test after my fingernail. My lino really does bounce and ring.
The dead soft just thuds and sits there.
DM

[Steel Horse Bailey]

S.H.B.

I'm not familiar with the tester you've used. However, if it is measuring the softness/hardness at the surface, you could get a false indication. As you mention the ingots have been stored outside for some time, the surface has oxidized. The oxidized lead is harder than the base metal. I suggest digging in a bit. If it were my chunk, I'd chisel, cut or chop a hunk off, melt in my ladle and cast a round ball or two and load in one of my percussion revolvers. My hands can tell a less than pure RB quite readily while working the rammer & I'll bet you can too.

Regards,
Slim

I hadn't thought of that, MontySlim - thanks.  I don't have a roundball mould, but I get your point.  Once I get a good supply of pure lead, there's a RB mould somewhere just hankerin' to join my equipment.


SpringSlim, Noz, Dalton, Ranch13 & others; thanks for your input!

[Springfield Slim]

If you really want to know what the hardness is, you could mail me an ingot and I could cast up some bullets and test them. Even 1/4 of an ingot would be plenty.

[Steel Horse Bailey]

If you really want to know what the hardness is, you could mail me an ingot and I could cast up some bullets and test them. Even 1/4 of an ingot would be plenty.

Thanks, pard.  Very kind of you.

Actually, I'm pretty confident that what I've already spent over $100 on will be fine, as long as I do my part.  Like melting down/cutting into ingots that have been outside for years to make a proper surface to measure!  And other things like that.  The things I already have that I know their relative hardness I have tested to compare readings and they have matched.

When I started this thread I was pretty much wondering how much lead or lead alloys will harden over time and what effect the oxidized lead would have on the overall hardness.

[Montana Slim]

Just to clarify, When it's time to cast....no need to waste your time/effort removing the oxide. It will simply float to the top & you'll skim it off from the pot.

Regards,
Slim
(Who started casting in "Mom's" kitchen many year ago)

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Right-o!