Richards Transition model

Johnny McCrae · July 29, 2009, 07:58:38 AM

Yesterday I purchased a new Cimarron Richards Transition Model in .44 colt with an 8" barrel. I'll get it after the waiting period.

I will load my own cartridges so I did some research as far as what I will need. I use a Lee Classic Turret press and will plan to use Lee .44 Russian Dies. I will use Starline .44 Colt brass with large pistol primers. I will use a .44 Caliber 200 grain bullet sized at .430". For powder I will start out with 3.0 grains of Trail Boss as per the Hodgdon website. The 3.0 grains sounds light but that's what the website specifies. I use 3.0 in my .38 Special rounds and 5.7 in my .44-40 WCF rounds.

Any comments or suggestions will be greatly appreciated. I'm not going to buy and reloading dies or components for at least a couple of weeks. I'm going to have my gunsmith go over this gun before I shoot it.

Please excuse the lousy cell phone picture.

Also posted on Shooter's Meeting

Frenchie · July 29, 2009, 08:40:15 AM

Good-looking shooting iron! Keep us updated on how things go with the reloading, etc. The more knowledge gets spread around, the better. Cheers!

Long Johns Wolf · July 30, 2009, 01:11:32 AM

Congrats on the acquisition. Good choice, reliable shooter. Mine was made 2003 already! For many years the .44 Colt is my favorite cowboy round in pistols and rifle. You will love it.
Long Johns Wolf

Johnny McCrae · July 30, 2009, 05:50:27 AM

Howdy Frenchie & LJW,

Many thanks for the kind words. I can't wait to pick it up. I'll post some better pictures after my Sturgis trip.

Coffinmaker · August 02, 2009, 10:20:06 PM

Johnny,

Before you fire a single round, pull the barrel and cylinder to inspect where the firing pin comes thru the Breach Ring. If the firing pin contacts the bottom/sides of the breach ring it must be fixed. If there is contact, pick up a set of small diamond files (Lowe's) and relieve the area until there is NO contact. You don't have to remove much metal, but it is hardened so a diamond needle file will work best.
If the firing pin contacts the breach ring, it is hitting the back side of the hardened surface and will cause a small chip to spall off and leave a crater. The primer will flow back into the crater and because the crater has sharp sides, will stop the gun solid.
Normally the cartridge/primer stops the firing pin from contacting the Breach Ring, but if you lose count of rounds fired and drop the hammer on an empty chamber (dry fire) the spalling occurs.

Coffinmaker

rifle · August 03, 2009, 11:23:06 AM

I've seen the RM's where the primer set back and dented the recoil shield pretty bad. Some are milled from the rear not tapered and they are thin around the firing pin hole. (I'd check the milling at the rear of the hole to see if it is a taped milled hole back there. Some have needed Colt Peacemaker firing pin bushings set in the recoil shields.
Anyway.....I'd minimize any enlarging the diameter of the firing pin hole and work the firing pin if it's possible. I have a RM I bought used..fired only a few times and there's a primer indentation in the recoil shield that pretty deep. I got a new conversion ring toi put on the gun. It is milled different in the rear of the firing pin hole.
I may try to save the original breech ring by installing a Colt firing pin hole bushing. You know that hardened steel round plate that sets into the recoil shield around the firing pin hole? Mill a rebate and it just tapps in and stays put.
Personally I think the "Richards" with the firing pin on the recoil plate was a better design than the firing pin hole and the firing pin on the hammer with the Richards Mason.

Johnny McCrae · August 06, 2009, 05:10:28 AM

Howdy Coffinmaker & Rifle,

Many thanks for your very timely posts. This is exactly the type of information i'm looking for. I'm on the way back from my annual Sturgis trip. If the weather holds up I'll be able to pick up this pistol later on today.

My gunsmith will go over this pistol before any rounds are fired. I'll be giving him copies of your posts.

I think I was able to take a picture of an original Transition Model at the Buffalo Bill Musuem in Cody, WY. I will post some pictures when I get home.

I greatly appreciate your help.

Fox Creek Kid · August 06, 2009, 02:05:43 PM

Rifle, you cannot install a Colt recoil plate in an Uberti conversion because the plate is 0.090" thick & there is not enough "meat" on the breech face after you mill a hole. I had that problem on a RM and the gunsmith merely welded it up, filed it down & re-hardened it.

Johnny McCrae · August 07, 2009, 01:26:51 PM

Picked up my new Richards Transition yesterday on my way home from out west. Attached is a picture of it along with a picture of what I think is an original model. I should have checked the sign by this revolver but forgot. This picture is from the firearms collection at the Buffalo Bill Museum in Cody, WY.

As soon as I unwind from my trip, I'll pull the barrel and cylinder to inspect where the firing pin goes thru the breach ring.

Mako · August 07, 2009, 05:33:02 PM

Johnny,
The one in the Museum is a Richards Type 1 yours is a "replica" (more or less) of a Type 2. They have very differerent firing pins, and sights. The loading gate and recoil shield additions are also different. Some people call the Type IIs "Transition Models" because they were converting to the Richards Mason conversions. The Type IIs used the original barrel as did the Type I. Army model Richard Mason Conversions used a new factory barrel that was made from the get-go to accept an ejector housing.

The Model '61 Navy models Richard Mason Conversions still used the original barrel, but they recut the area where the ramming rod went in to make it a more snag free and swept profile. The '51s were a mixed bag of barrels, I've seen them with and without the clearance cut of the original percussion model. Some barrels were called solid lug barrels because they were never cut out for a ramming rod.

Thanks for the photos, have fun with your new pistol.

Regards,
Mako

Johnny McCrae · August 07, 2009, 09:07:17 PM

Howdy Mako,

Thank you very much for the information. I wish I had taken more time to read the information associated with the exhibits but I was in a bit of a hurry trying to beat the weather. Also the battery on my camera ran out and I missed some great pictures of an exhibit on Colt revolvers showing their evolution. Next year I'll plan this visit a little better.

Johnny McCrae · August 18, 2009, 09:23:28 PM

Just an update on my experience loading .44 Colt cartridges......

I had my Gunsmith go over this revolver before any rounds were fired. I then fired a box of Black Hills .44 Russian cartridges through it. I could not find any .44 Colt cartridges locally.

Lee Precision is around a sixty mile ride from my home. I picked up a set of Lee's .44 Russian dies along with a Lee Factory Crimp die. I reloaded the .44 Russian cases with a 200 grain bullet sized at .429" and 3.0 grains of Trail Boss. I was able to buy some Starline .44 Colt cases and loaded (25) with a 200 grain bullet along with 3.0 grains of Trail Boss. I also loaded (10) with 3.2 grains of Trail Boss. The Lee .44 Russian dies were easy to set up for .44 Colt cartridges.

I'm not a good pistol shot but was very pleased with how this pistol shoots. I also was pleased how well the Lee .44 Russian dies worked for .44 Colt cartridges. Since .44 Colt cases are readily available for me, I probably will just load .44 Colt cartridges with 3.2 grains of Trail Boss for now.

I may just have to buy a mate for the this pistol.

Razorback Joe · August 31, 2009, 11:36:52 AM

Quote from: rifle on August 03, 2009, 11:23:06 AM
I've seen the RM's where the primer set back and dented the recoil shield pretty bad. Some are milled from the rear not tapered and they are thin around the firing pin hole. (I'd check the milling at the rear of the hole to see if it is a taped milled hole back there. Some have needed Colt Peacemaker firing pin bushings set in the recoil shields.
Anyway.....I'd minimize any enlarging the diameter of the firing pin hole and work the firing pin if it's possible. I have a RM I bought used..fired only a few times and there's a primer indentation in the recoil shield that pretty deep. I got a new conversion ring toi put on the gun. It is milled different in the rear of the firing pin hole.
I may try to save the original breech ring by installing a Colt firing pin hole bushing. You know that hardened steel round plate that sets into the recoil shield around the firing pin hole? Mill a rebate and it just tapps in and stays put.
Personally I think the "Richards" with the firing pin on the recoil plate was a better design than the firing pin hole and the firing pin on the hammer with the Richards Mason.

Hi Pard

I've the problem you have noted. I have 2 1860 R/M conv. .45 S/W and both of them have a primer indentation in the recoil shield and I ordred 2 recoil shield from Cimarron and will receive them sometime this week. I know i'm not a gunsmith but would like to know how the recoil shield is removed form the main frame

Also, what do you mean by "mill a rebate and it tapps in and stays put"

I do not want any problem while having fun

Thanks for your infol

Razorback Joe

Sgt.Jake · August 31, 2009, 04:12:34 PM

Razorback I dont mean to speak for Rifle, I think he is speaking of using a colt SAA firing pin bushing. Not something most of us home tinkers are equipped to do,although some maybe. Coffinmaker is if I understand him correctly is saying to weld up the recoil shield and recut the firing pin hole,also something most of us are not equipped to handle at home. I would recommend trying to contact Coffinmaker,as he is a gunsmith, of some experience,ether here on cas city or on the sass wire and see what he recommends. Hope ya get it fixed up ,so ya can get it a shootin,good luck. Sgt. Jake

Abilene · September 01, 2009, 12:01:25 PM

Razorback. The conversion ring is held against the frame by the cylinder (arbor) pin, which is screwed into the frame, and has a set-pin locking it in place. If you pull the hammer back and look into the slot in the frame you will see the rear of the cylinder pin and the small pin that locks it in place. After disassembling the revolver, you must drill out the set-pin. Then you will be able to unscrew the arbor and remove the recoil shield (conversion ring). After reassembling, you will need to make a new set-pin out of a drill bit or something similar. This set-pin or lock-pin is not an item that is stocked by Cimarron or even VTI as far as I know (it shows up in the parts diagrams but has no part number). Seems like I've heard of other methods used for securing the arbor, like maybe drilling and tapping for a setscrew. Perhaps some others will chime in on this. Good luck.

Flint · September 03, 2009, 06:21:01 PM

A bit confusing as to the part numbers used, as there are 000023 and 900023, and called out on the cartridge views as part number 28, though it has a 23 part number in the list.. Usually, Uberti has used the same pin for both the barrel pin and the arbor locking pin. A call to VTI will get the facts. Lisa there knows what the parts are and what works.

A common suggestion, once the arbor has been removed, is to tap the hole and replace the pin with a #6 set screw, making future removal much easier.