.44-40 primer history - small rifle - large pistol

[w44wcf]

Pards,
Been away for awhile. I was reading the post regarding .44-40 primers. Here's a bit of history.

Pre 1929 -
The .44 W.C.F. / .44-40 cartridge case was made with small primer pockets and used small rifle primers.

Post 1929-
Cases were changed to the large primer pocket and were sized to use large pistol primers.

w44wcf

[Mako]

Pards,
Been away for awhile. I was reading the post regarding .44-40 primers. Here's a bit of history.

Pre 1929 -
The .44 W.C.F. / .44-40 cartridge case was made with small primer pockets and used small rifle primers.

Post 1929-
Cases were changed to the large primer pocket and were sized to use large pistol primers.

w44wcf

w44wcf,
Are you sure all manufacturers used small rifle primers prior to 1929?

Regards,
Mako

[Delmonico]

That is interesting, I knew a lot of the older 44WCF used small primers.  Didn't realize it was all of them.

Would be interesting to have some new made cases with small primers, in certain rounds of pistol ammo some loads work better with standard small rifle primers than with pistol ones, either mag or standard.  Also in a lot of loads small pistol primers work better in 22 Hornet than rifle primers.  (Yes you start load work all over with each change)

Now these are smokeless loads I'm talking about but could be interesting to try with black.

Also I'd hazard a guess that a reason for the change could have been DA revolvers fired DA. They were never real popular in this caliber but I could see where one might get misfires with rifle primers with them.

[Fox Creek Kid]

SAAMI was created in 1926 and before that many ammo makers used their own proprietary primers of which the variations are bewildering, e.g,. Martin, Benét, Farrington, Orcutt, Berdan, etc., etc. The first Winchester primers used in 1873 for the 44-40 were small in diameter. As for their length, I do not know.

[Delmonico]

Kid, small rifle and pistol are the same length, why they make large rifle longer than large pistol is a reason known only to who ever decided it.

[fourfingersofdeath]

I　ｇｕｅｓｓ　ｉｎ　ｔｈｏｓｅ　ｄａｙｓ，　ｔｈｅｙ　ｗｅｒｅ　［ｒｅｔｔｙｍｕｃｈ　ｗｏｒｋｉｎｇ　ｉｔ　ｏｕｔ　ａｓ　ｔｈｅｙ　ｗｅｎｔ　ａｌｏｎｇ．

ＰＬｅａｓｅ　ｅｘｃｕｓｅ　ｔｙｐｅ，　Ｉ＇ｍ　ｉｎ　Ｃｈｉｎａ　ａｎｄ　ｔｈｉｓ　ｃｏｍｐｕｔｅｒ　ｄｏｎ＇ｔ　ｌｉｋｅ　ｗｏｒｋｉｎｇ　ｉｎ　Ｅｎｇｌｉｓｈ　

[Fox Creek Kid]

Kid, small rifle and pistol are the same length, why they make large rifle longer than large pistol is a reason known only to who ever decided it.

They are now.

[Delmonico]

They are now.

OK, i'm guessing that always wasn't so. 

[w44wcf]

Mako,
I have a number of early specimens from several different manufacturers of .44 W.C.F. / .44-40 cartridges in my collection and they all have small primers.

1929 was the year that Winchester changed to the 111 staynless large pistol primer in their .44 W.C.F. according to Dan Shuey, who has many of the original Winchester records. Other manufacturers most likely made the transition in about the same time frame.

I double checked the primer numbers and found that a milder small primer was used in .44 W.C.F. / .44-40 cartridges loaded with b.p.  Probably similar in brisance to today's small pistol primers.  A higher strength primer was used in smokeless cartridges.....simiilar to present day small rifle primers.

w44wcf

[Mako]

w44wcf,
I have a few older .44WCF and .38WCF cartridges and they have small primers as well.  I have had these ever since my Grandfather gave them to me in the '80s and I never noticed they had small primers until you mentioned it.  They are head stamped W.R.A. CO.

I learn new things all the time from people like you who are truly experts in their field.  I knew there wasn't a lot of standardization for a long time, which is why I asked the question.

Best Regards and keep up the good work Professor w44wcf,
Mako

[Mako]

w44wcf,
Here is a mix of older cartridges showing the small primers on the .38WCF and .44WCF cases.  There is also from what you have told us is a newer UMC-REM .38WCF case as well as two older .45 Colt cartridges.

http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt358/Mako_CAS/Cartridges/IMG_2428a.jpg

Like I said I had never realized they had smaller primers until you pointed it out.

Thanks,
Mako

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

Here is a photo of a couple of 38-40 cartridges in my collection. The one on the right was made by the United States Cartridge Company of Lowell, MA, very near to where I live. I believe the USCCO was sold to Winchester in 1926 and all ammunition production in Lowell ceased.

Sorry, I have no information on the actual date of the cartridge, or exactly what type of primer it is. Just an interesting photo. I also think it is interesting that USSCO stamped their name on the primer.

[Mako]

Driftwood,
If you look in my photo above at the .38WCF center top row you will notice there is a "W" stamped on it.  Wichester marked theirs as well.  The UMC .38-40 case dierectly below it is actually a misfire, it is still loaded.  I have quite a few WRA Co .38WCF cartridges and the primers are all marked with a "W". I'm like you I have no idea what the year is on these cartridges, these are all family heirlooms as well as the guns they fit.

Thanks for the photo.

~Mako

[w44wcf]

Mako,
Best regards to you as well.  Early on, the "W" on the primer indicated that the cartridge contained smokeless powder.

Several years ago I got some original .45-60 W.R.A. CO. headstamped cartridges at an auction. A couple of them had the "W" on the primer which I thought was a bit strange since the .45-60 was only factory loaded with b.p.  I dissected one, and sure enough, the case contained b.p.

That was a bit confusing to me so I contacted a Winchester Cartridge Historian that I know and he did some research using the Winchester records that he has.  He found that around 1915, Winchester began using the "W" on the small primer  for both b.p. and smokeless since they felt it would be more efficient to use just one primer for cartridges that were loaded with both powder types.

Thank you for the pics of the cases and also thank you to DJ for his pics as well.

w44wcf