What is wrong with Italian clones and their quality?

The Avocado Kid · February 11, 2008, 12:45:16 AM

Quote from: Virginia Gentleman on February 04, 2008, 09:59:47 AM
I find it funny how we all watch Japanese and S. Korean TVs, some of us drive Japanese Toyota trucks, buy French tires for them or load up on tons of Chinese products at Wal-Mart with out a second thought and yet, to some of us the mere mention of one of those Eyetalian or Spagetti guns made in Italy is almost an abomination. I personally think they are an outstanding value for the quality and price point, yet not all share in my opinion. If so why?

When I started out as a Civil War reenactor in the early 1980's I thought it Odd that all the replica guns were made in you-know-where

That was a-long time ago and they have really improved over the years...now when I watch a movie...I look for them and I look for the orig. guns as well. Today,we have so many models,types etc.to chose from it's really cool. After all these years I have lost my FBS (firearms bigotry syndrome)and glad I did....be safe and have fun!

Deadeye Don · February 11, 2008, 06:37:47 AM

We all need to remember that without Uberti, our CAS activities would be drastically curtailed. In addition alot of us in CAS today would not be here if all that was available was higher priced American made guns. Regards. Deadeye.

Fox Creek Kid · February 11, 2008, 04:28:27 PM

Hey Deadeye Don!!! You just had to interject common sense into this thread!!!!!

Deadeye Don · February 11, 2008, 06:38:34 PM

Quote from: Fox Creek Kid on February 11, 2008, 04:28:27 PM
Hey Deadeye Don!!! You just had to interject common sense into this thread!!!!!

I do have an annoying habit of doing that. Sorry.

Virginia Gentleman · August 06, 2009, 04:19:45 PM

The Italian gunmakers have indeed made it possible for us to enjoy guns that would otherwise not be available in modern times like the Uberti made Schofields....in fact the steel, manufactering process and the design changes made for using smokeless loads and cartridges have really done the gun loving world a real service.

Major 2 · August 06, 2009, 07:08:47 PM

Quote from: Deadeye Don on February 11, 2008, 06:37:47 AM
We all need to remember that without Uberti, our CAS activities would be drastically curtailed. In addition alot of us in CAS today would not be here if all that was available was higher priced American made guns. Regards. Deadeye.

Not Mention.... one of the two main founders of SASS is US GRANT SASS #2
Boyd A. Davis, CEO/President of EMF.
Then and now one of the Major importers.

Rowdy Fulcher · August 06, 2009, 08:24:07 PM

Major
I shot a video today for You tube using the EMF Great Western ( California ) it shot basically to point of aim at 10 yards .
I shot smokeless , black powder substitute , and yes Black Powder from Powder Inc. all 3 shot well . I still love the 45 Colt
if I was in a tight spot this would defiantly be the caliber I want tucked in my waist band .

Major 2 · August 06, 2009, 09:06:21 PM

While we at it, we might also mention...

* USFA owes it's roots to Uberti ( it was USPFA and an Importer first ) In fact it's the same style CNC machinery.

* Colt themself used Uberti , with help from Val Forgett II ,Aldo Uberti , Vittorio Gregorelli and, ultimately, Lou Imperato.

* We might also owe thanks to the Spaghetti Westerns and Sergio Leone.

* The US Army uses the M92 Beretta...( yes it US made but Italian Company ) ending the long run of Colt & S&W.

I own 5 Colts one circa 1862 and another made in 1879 ....the other three are 2nd Gen Colt BP Series.
One of those is 30 + years old ..now sports an R&D (made for Uberti 1860 ) 45colt conversion . and is as tight today, as the day in 1978 I ordered it with either Cylinder.
I have had to change the Bolt spring twice in 30 years though...

Virginia Gentleman · August 07, 2009, 02:52:45 PM

Even with better steels and springs, the replicas are based on an old design that will need some parts replacement while going through the rigors of CAS shooting. It seems obvious to most that replicas are shot way more than the originals ever were and it is phenomenal that they have such few failures by comparision.

Old Doc · August 07, 2009, 08:58:34 PM

Apparently they are prohibited by their government from doing so, but wouldn't it be interesting if a Japanese company such as Miroku, who makes Browning Citoris, came out with a Colt SAA clone? I doubt there would be any questions about quality.

Virginia Gentleman · August 10, 2009, 09:00:22 AM

Quote from: Old Doc on August 07, 2009, 08:58:34 PM
Apparently they are prohibited by their government from doing so, but wouldn't it be interesting if a Japanese company such as Miroku, who makes Browning Citoris, came out with a Colt SAA clone? I doubt there would be any questions about quality.

People would think "wow I'm sure it is made better than the originals." This statement though, is true of the Italian replicas in almost every case, think about it, they are making 19th century arms with better steels, engineering and durability than the originals could ever hope to be in the blackpowder era.

Old Doc · August 11, 2009, 07:51:08 AM

Quote from: Virginia Gentleman on August 10, 2009, 09:00:22 AM
People would think "wow I'm sure it is made better than the originals." This statement though, is true of the Italian replicas in almost every case, think about it, they are making 19th century arms with better steels, engineering and durability than the originals could ever hope to be in the blackpowder era.

But it's not just that. A lot is the handfitting that went into the originals. I have an interesting 1st generation Colt .45 SAA. It was made in 1903 and looks brand new. I bought it at a gunshow for $400 in the early 70's. I have a factory letter that says when it left the factory it was a .38-40 with 7 1/2in barrel. It now is a 5 1/2in .45 and at some time was factory re-finished and apparently re-barreled. At any rate, the action is like a swiss watch and the accuracy is dead on, all of which I attribute to handwork.

Virginia Gentleman · August 11, 2009, 09:01:55 AM

True, the hand fitting of old was amazing and with some good 'smithing one can get a clone or even a modern Colt to work just about as well. USFA comes out of the box timed perfectly and is handfitted the old fashioned way and many of the importers now offer upgraded guns that offer the same. It is interesting to note the the Italians had to loosen up some tolerances on their Schofield replicas to make them funtion better, so handfitting is a big factor as you point out, but the quality of today's materials are far superior in the actual construction of the guns made today.

Ten Wolves Fiveshooter · August 11, 2009, 11:05:46 AM

Howdy All

The Italian Imports are fine guns in most cases, and the steel is much better than what was used in old, I used to shoot two second generation Colt SAA's in 45 long, and I guess I just shot them loose, this was back in the earlier 60's before Loc-Tite, so I sold them , wish I hadn't now, but I was young and foolish, anyway I had a sponsor back then , and I use to shoot on average 500 rounds off in one weekend, the new gun I was using was a Intercontinental Dakota by Jaeger, this guns barrel was proof test 9 times without the barrel blowing apart, that sold me on the quality of this import, Since then I've gotten into the Great Western ll's, and these are the closes to the second generation Colt SAA's I owned, the timing was spot on, I use a Range Rod to check my guns to make sure they are timing correctly, and do this on all my other guns also, I have found that Pietta is putting out some beautiful high quality firearms, these are the only Six guns that I haven't had to change any springs or smooth out anything, the Great Western ll is a finished gun, and my Hats off to Pietta for doing a great job, and for EMF for being smart enough to be there distributor, you can't beat EMF for there customer service and friendly and professional way they take care of you.

Regards

tEN wOLVES

Virginia Gentleman · August 13, 2009, 01:16:47 PM

The only thing holding me back from buying a GW II is that Pietta is afraid of Colt's lawyers and stopped putting the patent dates on the frame.

Major 2 · August 13, 2009, 02:36:54 PM

If imitation, is the sheerist form of flattery and the patent dates is more like paying homage to that, than Brand Name infringement..

I find it sad indeed , that Colt can only sue in an attemp to show a profit on a Design, they themselves discontinued twice in the past.

They threatened USFA in 1990's forcing the Company to change USPFA (Course USPFA/USFA owns the old Blue Dome Colt Factory )
They enter in to an agreement, with Uberti to tool up for the Authenic Black Powder Series...then when the 2nd Gens. ran it's course and Uberti still had parts with Colt's Address...forced Uberti with threat of suit to cease using these remaining parts so marked.
I have one of the Uberti Colt Walker with Address SamL Colt, bought is new in 1984 from MidSouth Shooters supply. Nope, not a 2nd Gen or even 3 Gen. as it also has Proof marks & small A.Uberti under the loading lever

USFA, Uberti, Pietta even Ruger Etal, are making tidy sums selling Colt's Patent.... Colt was even forced to try to compete
with Colt Cowboy ( we saw how that turned out )

Don't get me wrong, I own and covet my Colt's....But today others are beating them at their own game....they have two SERIOUS ISSUES...
First they need to get over resting on their laurals...
and second take serious gander at American made VS UNION made.... Union costs & Conn. Taxes are driving Colt down a dead end road to ruin. You need look no further than Winchester, Chrysler, GM.

And I say this, having been a UNION man some 35 years...

Virginia Gentleman · August 13, 2009, 04:36:13 PM

My grandfather was in the construction business and had to join several unions even when he was a Sr. Building Inpector, but that is when Unions were more partners than business killers like they are today. He never did like big labor unions and often said he hated having to join them in the firstplace, but he said it sure beat unemployment.

If I were Colt I'd go into bankruptcy, get "sold" and relocate to another state and re-tool with better CNC machines, a first generation SAA design and use non-union labor. I'd also see if I couldn't work out a deal with USFA or the Italian firms to supply parts for my new SAAs...if you can't beat'em, join'em.