My New (Old) Spencer rifle with Photos and Some Questions

[JacobMGeise]

I just got a Spencer rifle (from a different gun collecting forum) and have gotten a lot of great information from reading previous posts and from Two Flints in regard to the serial number (S/N 6926--CO B, 8th Indiana Volunteer Cavalry). I've got a couple of other questions, though.

The rifle itself is in decent shape. It looks like all the parts fit well, the lock and trigger are crisp, and the breech block lockup and lever seem pretty good, too. The rifle's been around awhile, and at some point it was freshened up a bit: the stock was scaped/sanded a bit--enough to take off any stampings/cartouches, but not so much as to make the metal be above the wood. The standard wall-hanging surface rust was taken down to a nice overall patina, but not over cleaned. The bore has a few patches of old rust pitting, but the rifling that's there is sharp. There is a crack starting at the lower buttplate screw, but it shouldn't affect the gun's operation.

The rifle is missing a few more parts than I thought, so I downloaded the S&S catalog fronm their website and came up with a pretty good shopping list: front barrel band and band spring, complete magazine (the inner mag. tube is still there, though), rear sight slider and screw, and it looks like the cartridge follower is also missing. I'll probably order the centerfire conversion block, as well, since it won't mean modifying the original parts to be able to throw some lead after I get things cleaned up.

Looking at the muzzle, it looks like the barrel was sleeved with the 3-groove .50 caliber liner. Was this done to rifles as well as the carbines after the war? (I've only read about the carbines in the general gun price & collecting books that I have.)

The extractor is the single long blade on the left, with no spring. I'm not sure what the stabler cutoff looks like when it's installed, but I don't see one, based on the S&S catalog photo.

The only markings that I see on the rifle is the standard three-line "Spencer Repeating Arms...1860" patent information (the middle line is mostly unreadable, but the other two are fairly clear), and the serial number 6926 at the rear of the receiver, as well as on the underside of the barrel near the forearm attaching screw boss. Although any wood markings are long gone, is it normal to have so few inspection marks and designations on the barrel/receiver itself?

Sorry for the long post, but it's my first Spencer. 

[JacobMGeise]

A couple of more questions:

After some more inspection, it looks like there is an extractor spring, but the end that actually meets up with the extractor is broken off. Another item on the list. I couldn't find any photos online, so maybe someone could tell me--is there anything that goes in the circular cut area above the spring, or is that just a clearance area for the extractor spring?


Looking at the front screw hole on the trigger bar, I noticed what looks like a pin that protrudes into the screw head area (maybe to lock it in place?). I'm not sure how they originally got the screw out (it wasn't screwed in correctly when I got it), but it won't go back in unless I take out the pin (it won't move with light pressure), or modify the screw, which looks original, but chewed up a bit from being put in over the pin. Any thoughts on this?



Thanks, again.

[Arizona Trooper]

Your Spencer is very nice looking. It indeed has the post war Springfield updates.

Your extractor spring is broken. There is a missing half circle extension that presses the extractor blade forward. You can shoot your rifle without this spring. It is another Edward Stabler improvement/invention. It makes single loading a lot easier.

Here are the missing I found in your pictures that aren't on your list.

117, Cartridge follower (the ramp on top of the frame where the breechblock comes through.)

118, Cartridge follower spring

165, Cartridge follower screw (the head on yours looks a bit beat, which will make it harder to get out.)

128, Extractor Spring (for M-1865 Stabler extractor modification)

162, Stabler cutoff


Lodgewood (www.lodgewood.com) and Ed Knisely (717-741-2556, e-mail EdKnisely@aol.com) will have these parts as well. Ed also will have the sight elevator, which S&S doesn't list separately.

You are lucky to still have the sling swivels. These are often lost, almost impossible to find, and very expensive if you get lucky and stumble into a set. Sharps rifles use the exact same swivels.

It is normal to have little letters on all the parts. These are the sub inspector's marks. Each part was checked against a set of gauges before it was hardened and finished. If it passed the gauge test, the inspector punched it with his letter and sent it on for finishing. Parts that failed went into Spencer's sporting rifle shop and were stamped with assembly numbers once they were matched up with other out of spec parts and built into a civilian rifle.

The front screw of the trigger plate is where the Stabler magazine cutoff in supposed to be. Your screw doesn't fit right because the cutoff thumb lever itself is missing. The cutoff fits down in the trigger plate screw hole, and the pin stops it from spinning around and eventually backing the screw out. The cutoff should turn 180 degrees or so. When the thumb tab is to the back, the magazine won't feed. When it's to either side, the magazine works. There is a recent thread here on the Stabler cutoff, with a lot more information.

With three groove rifling, your rifle will shoot 56-50 ammunition rather than the original 56-56. This is good! It's a lot easier to load 56-50 than the heeled 56-56 bullets. Carefully clean that rust out of the barrel before your first trip to the range. It doesn't have to be all gone, but the more the better. The first 100 rounds or so won't be anything to write home about. You'll probably have some leading around the rust areas until they get worked down by passing bullets. "Leadout" works very well when this happens. Once the bore is "shot in", it should settle down and shoot very well.

Congratulations on finding an attributed Spencer. That is a rare discovery. The 8th Ind. Cav. has quite a history. It started off as the 39th Infantry and was one of the few units that made the jump from infantry to cavalry, although many tried. It. I'm sure that Spencer was in several hot fights.

[Black River Smith]

Could you provide photos that show the detailing of your rear sight?

Thanks

[JacobMGeise]

Black River Smith, here's what the rear sight looks like (it still needs to be cleaned, a bit)



Arizona Trooper--Thanks very much for the info. The Stabler cutoff is on order, and that explains the trigger plate, and why the pin is there (I'm glad I didn't try very hard to remove it). Now that I know what to look for, I'm going back over the old posts again and getting more good info. (There is one from Two Flints on the Springfield Armory post-war modifications that makes a lot more sense, now that I have the rifle in hand.)

I have the extractor spring, cartridge follower and screw on order, as well, but it looks like the follower spring is intact and still in place back up in the groove. (The end of the spring protrudes from the end of the follower slot about 1/16" and doesn't appear broken.) I'm getting a replacement follower screw since I don't think I'll be able to get the old one out intact. I'll try some penetrating oil on it for awhile, but I might have to forcibly (but carefully) extract it. It's not reverse-threaded, or anything strange, is it?

I was kind of surprised by the .50 cal. liner, but, like you say, it should be easier to load for, and the 3-groove liner is part of its documented history, so it's even better. I'm lucky in the fact that someone had already gotten the rust out of the barrel, so it's just the patches of pitting left that will fill up with lead while shooting. I don't have real high hopes as far as accuracy goes, but the muzzle doesn't look bad--I might be surprised there, too.

I've got some of the parts on order with S&S (I also found a Snider action that I could use on a different rifle) and some inquiries with Lodgewood and Ed Knisely for others. S&S is out of the centerfire breechblock assemblies, so I'm still in search of one. (I don't reload, at the moment, but it looks like there are pre-loaded ammo being made in case I can't wait to start rolling my own.)

Overall, I am very happy and feel lucky to have this rifle. I was prepared to get an anonymous post-war era rifle, but this is better than I had hoped for. As far as the 8th Indiana--I'd never heard on an infantry unit being re-designated as a Cav. unit, but I've been learning several new things every day, lately. Thanks, again.

[Two Flints]

Need a Spencer block...http://www.buffaloarms.com/browse.cfm/4,3024.htm

Great people to do business with, very helpful.

Two Flints

[Arizona Trooper]

The accuracy might surprise you. At an N-SSA National match I once went 6 hits for 8 shots in 45 seconds with my M-1860 Spencer rifle, shooting clay pigeons hanging on wires at 50 yards. Bobby Hoyt (a fantastic barrel smith) looked down the bore shortly afterwards and commented that most the barrels he sleeves look better than that when he gets them. It's won medals at regional shoots. The bore powder fouls quickly enough, but doesn't have a leading problem.

[Black River Smith]

Thank you,

Very nice original rifle.  That is great,

[Bead Swinger]

That's a really beautiful piece - Thanks for the pics.  You'll have fun shooting it - You'll want the 56-60 brass & dies for originals, though.


Here's a little bit of its bearer's history:

8th REGIMENT CAVALRY - originally started the war as an infantry regiment.  Rsecrans had them mounted in the Summer of 1863 to help offset the serious deficiency he had in mounted troops (he was facing the likes of Wheeler and Forrest). Certainly was the 'fightingest' of all of the Indiana cav regiments, at least by casualties. The Spencer Rifles they received were issued sometime in mid-late July 1863, and as I recall, prior to the Chickamauga campaign in August.

Organized at Indianapolis, Ind., as 39th Regiment Infantry, August 29, 1861. Ordered to Kentucky and duty at Muldraugh's Hill, Camp Nevin, Nolin Creek and Green River till February, 1862. Attached to Wood's Brigade, McCook's Command, at Nolin, Army of the Ohio, October-November, 1861. 6th Brigade, Army of the Ohio, to December, 1861. 6th Brigade, 2nd Division, Army of the Ohio, to September, 1862. 6th Brigade, 2nd Division, 1st Army Corps, Army of the Ohio, to November, 1862. 1st Brigade, 2nd Division, Right Wing 14th Army Corps, Army of the Cumberland, to January, 1863. 1st Brigade, 2nd Division, 20th Army Corps, Army of the Cumberland, to April, 1863. Unassigned Cavalry Corps, Army of the Cumberland, to October, 1863. Designation changed to 8th Cavalry October 15, 1863. 1st Brigade, 2nd Division, Cavalry Corps, Army of the Cumberland, to April, 1864. 2nd Brigade, Kilpatrick's 3rd Division, Cavalry Corps, Army of the Cumberland, to October, 1864. 2nd Brigade, 3rd Division, Wilson's Cavalry Corps, Military Division Mississippi, to November, 1864. 1st Brigade, 3rd Division, Cavalry Corps, Military Division Mississippi, to July, 1865.

SERVICE.--Action at Upton's Hill, Ky., October 12, 1861. March to Bowling Green, Ky.; thence to Nashville, Tenn., February 14-March 2, 1862. March to Savannah, Tenn., March 16-April 6. Battle of Shiloh, Tenn., April 6-7. Advance on and siege of Corinth, Miss., April 29-May 30. Pursuit to Booneville May 31-June 6. Buell's Campaign in Northern Alabama and Middle Tennessee June to August. March to Nashville, Tenn.; thence to Louisville, Ky., in pursuit of Bragg August 20-September 26. Pursuit of Bragg into Kentucky October 1-15. Dog Walk October 8-9. March to Bowling Green, Ky.; thence to Nashville, Tenn., October 16-November 7, and duty there till December 26. Advance on Murfreesboro December 26-30. Battle of Stone's River December 30-31, 1862, and January 1-3, 1863. Duty at Murfreesboro till April. Reconnoissance to Middleton March 6-7. Christiana and Middleton March 6. Regiment mounted and changed to mounted infantry April, 1863. Expedition to Middleton May 21-22. Middleton May 22. Shelbyville Pike June 4. Operations on Eaglesville Pike June 4. Near Murfreesboro June 6. Middle Tennessee (or Tullahoma) Campaign June 22-July 7. Christiana June 24. Liberty Gap June 24-27. Tullahoma June 29-30. Occupation of Middle Tennessee till August 16. Passage of Cumberland Mountains and Tennessee River and Chickamauga (Ga.) Campaign August 16-September 22. Davis Ford, Chickamauga Creek, September 17. Battle of Chickamauga September 19-20. Mission Ridge September 22. Shallow Ford Road September 22. Companies "L" and "M" Join September, 1863. Expedition to East Tennessee after Champ Ferguson September-October. Designation changed from 39th Infantry to 8th Cavalry October 15, 1863. Courier duty between Chattanooga, Tenn., and Ringgold, Ga., November-December. Operations about Sparta January 4-14, 1864. Mill Creek Gap February 25. Leet's Tan Yard March 5. Near Nickajack Gap March 9. Regiment Veteranize February 22, and Veterans on furlough April-May. Atlanta Campaign July to September. Rousseau's Raid July 10-22, 1864. Ten Island Ford, Coosa River, Ala., July 14. Near Greenpoint July 14. Chehaw Station and Notasulga July 18. Siege of Atlanta July 22-August 25. McCook's Raid to Atlanta & West Point R. R. July 27-31. Lovejoy Station July 29. Clear Creek and near Newnan July 30. Dalton August 14-15. Sandtown August 15. Fairburn August 15. Kilpatrick's Raid around Atlanta August 18-22. Camp Creek August 18. Jonesboro August 19-20. Lovejoy Station August 20. Flank movement on Jonesboro August 25-30. Camp Creek and Flint River Station August 30. Jonesboro August 31-September 1. Lovejoy Station September 2-6. Campbellton September 10. Operations against Hood in North Georgia <dy_1109> and North Alabama September 29-November 3. Van Wert October 9-10. March to the sea November 15-December 10. Jonesboro November 15. Lovejoy Station November 16. Griswoldsville November 22. Milledgeville November 23. Sylvan Grove November 27. Waynesborough November 27-28. Near Waynesborough November 28. Buckhead Creek November 28 (Cos. "E," "G"). Buckhead Creek (or Reynolds' Plantation) November 28. Near Louisville November 29. Millen Grove December 1. Waynesboro December 4. Near Springfield December 10. Siege of Savannah December 10-21. Campaign of the Carolinas January to April, 1865. Blackville, S.C., February 7. Williston February 8. Johnson's Station February 10-11. Aiken February 11. Phillip's Cross Roads, N. C., March 4. Taylor's Hole Creek, Averysboro, March 16. Battle of Bentonville March 19-21. Occupation of Goldsboro March 24. Advance on Raleigh April 9-13. Raleigh April 13. Morristown April 13. Bennett's House April 26. Surrender of Johnston and his army. Duty in the Dept. of North Carolina till July. Mustered out July 20, 1865. Dismounted detachment left in Tennessee. Action at Pulaski September 26-27, 1864. Sparta November 29. Franklin November 30. Nashville December 15-16. Pulaski December 25-26.

Regiment lost during service 9 Officers and 138 Enlisted men killed and mortally wounded and 1 Officer and 250 Enlisted men by disease. Total 398.

See http://civilwarindiana.com/reg_history_cav.html
http://www.rootsweb.com/~inhoward/data/military/39threghist.html
http://www.civilwarindiana.com/soldiers/reg008c.html

[JacobMGeise]

Thanks for the extra info and encouraging words. I probably won't shoot it much, but it'll be good to know I can.

I hadn't realized that the Spencers were issued so early in the war. I occasionally re-enact a mid 1863 Virginia Infantry impression, so technically, I could carry it. Of course I would have had to capture it and some ammunition quite a distance from where I was deployed...   I might bring the rifle to a reenactment for display or show 'n' tell, but definitely wouldn't use it on the field--too many opportunities to damage it, and far too many blank rounds fired. I'll stick to my Armi-sport Enfield for that.

Thanks, again.

[major]

Jacob
If you are interested in using a Spencer for reenacting then you might want to check out this web site. http://www.9thnycavalry.webeditor.com/spencer_article.html
Terry