Safe With Smokeless?

[Standpat Steve]

I saw a nice 4th model S&W DA topbreak in .32 tonight at the local gunshop. I believe it meets the rules for an NCOWS pocket pistol, right? So, if I buy it, and shoot it infrequently, can it handle commercial smokeless loads? It looked really lonely there in the counter, and I know it would be happier living next to my S&W New Model #3.

[Standpat Steve]

Thanks for the reply. I didn't have my glasses with me, so I may have misread the serial number, but I think it was in the 150,000 range. The books state that the first year for that model was 1883 starting at 43,400, and that the last year of that model was 1909 ending at 282,999. This means it's iffy as to whether it was manufactured as a smokeless model, it would seem to me.

[Will Ketchum]

I have an Iver Johnson hammerless in 32 S&W that I have shot smokless in over the years.  Most NCOWS mathces only have 2 pocket pistol shots on a stage.

With that said it is so easy to load BP in the case that there isn't really any reason to.  I don't any more...welll not very much.

Will Ketchum

[Delmonico]

As I understand it, smokelss powder loads with the same max psi as a blackpowder load will often reach peak pressure faster than the black powder, this means that the shock on the firearm is greater, causing more wear faster.   A case with a small head (as the 32) will create less case head thrust than a larger case (as the 38 S&W) and the 38 would create more endshake and headspace problems faster than the 32 in identical guns, loaded to the same pressure, because the larger headed round has more suface area to push with.

This is why the TC Contender can shoot the 60,000 psi 223 Remington, but the 45-70 must be kept to the 25,000 psi level of the older guns, not the 55,000 psi as the Ruger #1.   

What I'm saying is that if I owned a 100 year old gun I'd be as kind to it as I could, I hope they will treat me as well if I make it to 100.

[Standpat Steve]

I would like the convenience of purchasing off the shelf ammo for a pistol that will be shot so little, and whose components are so tiny to manipulate during the reloading process. Still I hate to be the one to ruin a nice old S&W that has survived in good shape after 100 years (which is Delmonico's point). As Will Ketchum rightly states, it's just not that hard to reload black powder pistol cartridges. Probably 100 rounds would last me years and not stress the gun much, which impressed me with its tightness in the gun shop.

[St. George]

The Fourth Model that you're looking at was built somewhere before 1909.

I have a Lemonsqueezer in the same caliber and manufactured year that's tight as it was when new and I shoot factory loads in it.

I don't shoot a 'lot' of factory loads - but it's never been any sort of problem and I don't anticipate it becoming one, as the little S&Ws were well-fitted - as were many of the older pocket pistols like the Harrington and Richardsons , the Iver Johnsons, and the Forehand & Wadsworths.

Smith & Wesson didn't 'harden' their frames until 1915.

Scouts Out!

[Standpat Steve]

Thanks St. George,

Interesting that S&W didn't respond to the introduction of smokeless ammo chamber pressures for that long a period of time. I am less concerned about frame stretching due to lack of frame hardening, than I am about the cylinder coming unglued. The pressure curve difference between black and smokeless powders always makes me concerned that the cylinder will fragment if exposed to smokeless powder it was never intended to withstand.

On the lazy side, however, I'm thinking of asking the folks at Ten-X ammo if their .32 S&W is significantly lighter loaded than the commercially available Winchester or Remington ammo available at the local gun shop.   

[St. George]

Mostly - the thing to watch for is small parts breakage and replacement.
Use the correctly-sized screwdriver and you'll be ahead of the game.

If you dry-fire - do so with fired cases in the cylinders to lessen 'shock'.
The hammerless versions 'load' at the top of their pull - and you can control let-off as you can with a hammer-spurred piece quite nicely with dry-fire practice.

As to Ten-X or Black Hills or any of the manufacturers of "Cowboy Ammunition" - if you ask them that question - ask too about .38 S&W - because you're sure to find a nice one of those before too long.

Good Luck.

Scouts Out!

[Standpat Steve]

As to Ten-X or Black Hills or any of the manufacturers of "Cowboy Ammunition" - if you ask them that question - ask too about .38 S&W - because you're sure to find a nice one of those before too long.

Good Luck.

Scouts Out!

Well, it appears St. George is psychic . . . I picked up my new gun today and brought it home. I went to put an A-Zoom .32 S&W snap cap in the chamber, and it fell right through! It turns out I really bought a 3.25" barrel, nickel plated S&W 38 Double Action, Third Model. Made from 1884 to 1895, serial numbers run from 119K to 322K. My serial number is in the 136K range, so it's on the early side. Definitely intended for black powder, and Ten-X does offer .38 S&W in black. I think I actually prefer the 38 over the 32, so I'm happy that the mislabeling went that direction. I did have to have the gun shop correct the state paperwork as to caliber, to avoid any possible problems in the future. Or perhaps I should just consult with St. George as to what he foresees in my future