Rifling depth of cap&baller revolvers

[rifle]

 I've figured there's a relationship between the diameter of the lead balls in different caliber and the depth of the rifling in the pistol barrels. The shallower rifling in a relationship to the diameter of the balls in calibers seals the gases better and the guns are more accurate than the ones with deep rifling. The 44's have a good relationship  between the balls size and the depth of the rifling. The seal the gases well and shoot real well.
The 36's are more finicky. Why? I'll tell ya a story.
I was slugging barrels with oversize lead balls to determine the groove diameter of the barrels for getting the right size to ream cylinders chambers to match or slightly exceed that.
I got an oversize ball pounded into the breech end of a 36 cal. barrel and it took on the shape of the forcing cone. Real oversize for the barrels grooves. I got the ball maybe half way into the barrel. Why I did this I don't know...but I looked through the barrel out the window where there's light. I think I was checking to see if the lead was filling the grooves to know if I had to "bump up" the lead to get a true reading as to what the groove diameter was.
I was noticing light coming through each groove between the groove and the lead ball.
The ball was really oversize to begin with and then was hit with a metal steel hammer to get the lead in the barrel. The hammer obtuated the lead like a mushroom almost before a wood dowel was used to wack the lead into the barrel. I would think the lead would get to the bottom of the grooves. It didn't completely. Light shone through each groove.
Well..... I thought about that awhile..maybe months maybe years since I'm slow thunkin. I came to the realization that the maleable properties of soft lead are such that the lead is moved backwards when seated into the barrel and pulls the lead away from getting to the bottom of the rifling grooves...even when hammered with a steel hammer and the lead was oversize compared to the barrels groove diameter in the first place.
I thought again and remembered I always thought the 44's were easier to accuraize and not as finicky as 36's. The 44's seem to me to have less flyers and all.
I came to the conclusion that the relationship of the balls diameter compared to the depth of the barrels rifling was at play here.
I feel that a Pietta with rifling around .006 in the 36's are more consistantly accurate than 36's with deeper rifling that may be a depth of .010 inch or more. I concluded the gases must not be sealed as well when the rifling was a little too deep.
I came to the conclusions that a Pietta with ,006 inch deep rifling was a little more consistant than a Uberti 36 cal revolver with rifling about .010 inch deep.  I also came to a conclusion that the rifling depth in a 36cal. cap&baller would be best at .003-.004 inch with .004 my best guess.
This is just saying that the relationship between the diameter of a soft lead 36 cal. ball and the rifling depth in the 36's revolvers is too deep to help the lead ball seal in the bottom of the rifling grooves consistantly and completely. The 44's with thier larger diameter and the rifling depth of the 44's is pretty much right on or real close. Maybe the 44's could like a rifling depth of about .004 inch also?
Anyway.....the target guns like the Pedersoli and the Hedge and others seem to shoot better with their "shallower rifling grooves". The Uberti "62" Pocket Police with the grooves and chambers the same diameter and shallow grooves seems to always be real accurate too. 
Anyway...take an over size ball and wack it into the breech of your 36caliber  Colt barrel(use a wood dowel when you get too close to the rae of the barrel) and look thru it out the window. You'll see light in the rifling grooves. Do the same with your 44caliber and more times than not the light won't be coming thru the grooves since the grooves are sealed.
I know..some will say..the obstuation of the lead closes the grooves when a 36 is fired. Does it really? 36s are more finicky than 44's.
I don't think obstuation works as consistanly as some believe and may not work much at all when a ball is as light as a 36 bal and doesn't emitt much back force against the powder pressure. The 44's? I think they obstuate some. 
Anyway my contention is that the 36 caliber revolvers need rifling grooves shallower than they make them and should be about .004 inch deep to get the max consistancy and accuracy out of the gun.
I could ream the rifling lands in a 36 Uberti that starts at .010 in deep rifling grooves and test the accuracy as the lands are reamed away a couipls .001's at a time.  Well why do that when I can test a Pietta with shallower grooves  at .006 deep?
I think the Pietta would be a more consistant shooter  compared to the deeper grooved Uberti even if it's (the Pietta)grooves are a coupla .001's too deep since the Uberti ,in my mind , is about .006 inch deeper in the grooves than it should be with it's .010 in. deep rifling.
Anyway.....the distressed finished in the antique Piettas in 44 have rifling at .003 deep(also chambers the size diameter of the rifling grooves). I don't know of any distressed 36 Piettas with .003 deep rifling. I wish I could get one in 36cal. and .003 in. deep rifling to test out. The .004 depth would be better to test out but there ain't any.  
All I have seen is that the Pietta 36cal revolver with the .006 deep rifling seems to be more consistant right out of the box than the Uberti  ((or others) with rifling at .010 or deeper.
That seems to be a confirmation,at least in part, of my theory about the "more shallow rifled" 36 revolvers shoot better because of the maleable properties of pure lead.
Any thoughts or opinions or experiences concerning this subject would be appreciated. I know the 36's are plenty good for "Cowboy Shooting" at the closer distances but....what about the longer shots?  25 paces? 30 paces?

[Noz]

Just a question? Are the dimensions of the two barrels in question the same, groove to groove, and the lands higher and lower? Or, is the the dimension of the lands top to top the same with the grooves cut deeper on the one?

[Flint]

Rifling was originally used to give space for fouling in a previously smoothbore gun.  Rifling originally had no twist, but improved accuracy regardless.  When twist was introduced, accuracy was greatly improved, but you will notice that very early rifles had very deep grooves, and it was fouling that was the purpose, not the bite of the lead. Military bullets were kept just small enough to obturate and contact the lands.  Patched balls would clean the grooves, and bit into the rifling better than pure lead, unless oversized balls were pounded all the way down the bore.

Even some of the hexagonal and octagonal bores still had a groove cut at the apex of the hex flats for fouling reduction.

Most of the early Italian repros in the 60's had shallow, smokeless type rifling, but Uberti and others deepened the rifling in later production. They did foul quickly to a point where the rifling was invisible.  Current revolvers will show rifliung even after quite a few rounds have been fired, as much as used in a typoical CAS match.  However, the ROA seems to do well with shallow rifling.

[Dick Dastardly]

Annnnnnd, with Big Lube™ bullets, the fouling stays wet and soft and gets blown out with the next round.  FWIW, I'll be shooting my brace of ROAs at "Hang 'Um High" this weekend with the original Ruger C&B cylinders.  They'll run the entire match and finish with as much accuracy as they started with.

It's the lube that makes the difference.  With the EPP-UG and the DD/ROA bullets the lube is captured where it seals the chambers and can't get blown away like an over ball smear.

I will carry my lube/sized EPP-UG bullets to the match in the DD vials.  My cylinders will load quick and easy by just dumping in powder and seating the lube/sized bullets with my Tower of Power cylinder loading stand on my gun cart.  That's it, then I'll cap at the loading table.

DD-DLoS

[rifle]

I talked to Val Forgett once and he told me the italians made slightly undersized chambers due to subsequent shots with blackpowder. It stands to reason that the rifling depth might be deepened to accomodate blackpowder fouling.
Lube used to keep a barrel clean enough is important, I use lube pills under the balls that keep the rifling clear enough to fire up to 200 balls without cleaning the barrel. That's with balls. The Big Lube Bullets would certainly be the way to go if a shooter wants conical bullets.
I'm just saying that the shallower grooved barrels seem to seal the gas and shoot better. The relationship of the diameter of the ball compared to the rifling depth is a key. The 44's seem to have it right whereas the 36's seem to be a tad deep in the rifling. The Uberti 36's are about .010 in. deep and the Piettas about .006 in. deep in the rifling grooves where I believe they should be closer to .004 in. deep to be more consistant. More consistant .....like less flyers and all.
The target guns made by some like Pedersoli and Hedge(spell) have very shallow rifling.
I guess it's damned if you do and damned if you don't with blackpowder and it's fouling. Deep rifling to accomodate fouling or shallow rifling to accomodate better gas sealing and consistancy.
Anyway I'd wish for the 36 cal. revolvers to have .004 in. deep rifling. The 44's seem to do just fine the way they are....after the chambers are reamed to be the same diameter as the grooves in the barrels.
Noz...did I answer your question any?

[Noz]

Are you saying that land to land they are all the same size, it's just the groove depth that is different?

[Flint]

From what I've seen, both the lands and grooves are varying, depending on the maker and the caliber.  In recutting the forcing cone with a Brownell's tool, I found the brass pilots in the kit will not fit down the bore of a 44 cap & ball gun, the 44 pilot is too small and the 45 pilot is too large.

The bore's land diameter of a 44 is smaller than a 45 cartridge bore, and the groove diameter is larger than a (modern) 45 bore.

As a modern 45 caliber barrel made for cartridges has the groove diameter set at .450/.451, it would seem the land diameter is determined by the desired groove depth.

The original cap & ball bore size, 36 and 44, referred to the pilot bore,being .36 and .44 diameter, the cut rifling grooves expanded the caliber to .375 and .454 (or more).

So it would seem the cartridge bore and the cap & ball bore differed in which bore diameter was fixed, the cartridge barrel's groove diameter fixes the outside diameter of the bore, and the Cap & Ball land diameter fixes the inside diameterof the bore.

[rifle]

Noz, I'm not saying that land to land they are all the same with the groove diameters being different.
I'm trying to say that the relationship or the ratio between the size of the ball used and the depth of the rifling makes a difference in how the soft lead gets to the bottom of the grooves and seals gases(in the cap&ballers).
The 44 cal. cap&baller ball is,say, .451 and the rifling grooves .006 deep.
The 36 cal. cao&baller ball is,say, .375 and the rifling grooves .006 deep(Pietta) or .010 deep(Uberti).
When a 44cal. has an oversize lead slug driven into the barrel and seated about half way down the barrel  no light shows(most of the time) when putting the barrel towards a window to see if any light comes through the grooves in the barrel(when the oversize lead ball is still in there). It's ball diameter and the maleable qualities of the soft lead let the lead get into the bottom of the rifling grooves. Do the same thing with a 36 cal. barrel and when the barrel is put towards a window with light the light shows in each rifling groove showing that the lead isn't getting to the bottom of the rifling grooves.
Putting an oversize ball into a barrel and starting it with a metal hammer ..the lead mushrooms a lot.... and fills the forcing cone.... taking on the shape of it..... and then the ball is driven past the forcing cone and to about halfway down the barrel.  The 44's barrels with a shallower groove diameter in relation to the balls diameter that shoot thru it (.451 ball and .006 deep rifling)fill the grooves almost all the time whereas the 36's don't fill the grooves most of the time when the rifling is .006 deep and hardly ever when it's .010 deep.
I'm  not mentioning land to land diameter so as not make it confusing because it's just the depth of the rifling I'm comparing to the size ball the calibers 44 and 36 shoot. Naturally the 44's shoot balls about .451 with the ball swaged smaller by the chambers of the gun and the 36's shoot balls about .375 with the balls swaged smaller by the chsmbers of the gun.
I'm just saying,since I notice light shine thru the barrels rifling grooves in the 36 barrels when I drive an oversize ball into them that the size ball the gun shoots has to have the right ratio between it and the rifling depth because of the way soft lead acts when driven into a barrel.
I mean...if I take a .440 ball and drive it into a 36 barrel with a steel hammer and seat the lead half way down the barrel I would have reasoned the lead would fill the grooves but it doesn't.  Them lead is kinda pulled backwards by the land that engraves into it and seems to pull the part of the lead that would go into the bottom of the grooves back with it some so the lead doesn't get to the bottom of the grooves in the barrel.
Naturally I then reasoned that when the gun fires a lead ball the same thing must happen. The lead doesn't reach to the bopttom of the dang rifling grooves I reason. The cap&baller guns (36's) with the shallower groove diameters shoot better I've found and my contention is that most all are too deep in the rifling grooves(the 36's) and need to be adjusted at the factories that make them.  Adjusted to .004 inch I'd say would be just about right.
I mean, I've noticed the 44's seem to get the accuracy going easier than the 36's do and the 36's with the shallower grooves compared to other 36's seem more accurate to me. The shallower grooved 36's shoot more consistantly. I think anyway.  You know.....when a bullet or ball seals the gases behind it and doesn't let much gas pass by the projectile when the projectile goes down the barrel .....and especially when the projectile very first enters free air space, the gun shoots better.
So if figure the 36's need the rifling depth to be .004 deep rather than .006 or .010(Pietta and Uberti respectively).I say the Pietta 36 shoots better than the Uberti because the Pietta has shallower rifling grooves and that both Uberti and Pietta 36's would shoot better if the rifling grooves were left at .004 in. deep. Also.....I don't believe that obstuation of the lead when the 36's fire causes the lead to expand into the bottom of the grooves. Maybe close to it when the chambers are reamed to the diameter of the rifling grooves and maybe most of the time when the chambers are .001-.003 in. over the diameter of the rifling grooves.
Cowboy Action Shooters(the marrow of the earth) probably figure the cap&ballers shoot plenty good enough but.....they have to shoot good enough to hit the targets placed out at some distance. They are proud of their guns,and rightly so, so maybe they'd like them functioning tip top A-1 and are as accurate as they can be. Who knows.....a Cowboy Shooter may be at a big shoot somewhere out West and not have the change it takes to buy lunch so....he may go out a ways and try to pop a prairie dog or two for lunch. If he took the trusty Cap&Baller for a walk to get lunch that way he may want the gun to reach out a little furhter. You know...the dang Prairie Dogs jump into their holes if you get too close to them. ha ha ha 
Anyway......there are Pietta's cap&ballers with rifling grooves at .003 in. deep but they are 44's. There's no 36 cal. with rifling that shallow.....like the target guns.......not even the "Josey Wales" Model I don't think. 
Anyway.....I don't think fouling would be a real problem if a 36 cal. had shallower rifling grooves since there is the Big Lube Bullets for conicals and Lube Pills for use behind the round balls.
I might add.....ha ha ha ha  .......that when a 36 cal. cap&baller is converted to cartridge and the barrel is left "as is" and not re-sleeved to .357  they can still shoot well with the heeled bullets or hollow based bullets ,that probabely do expand into the rifling grooves well, .......because they have some weight to them and emmit back resistance to the gases shoving the conical out of the barrel so the lead probabely does obstuate("bump up").

[Noz]

rifle, not trying to be obtuse. I agreen on one point, my 1860s by Uberti have a noticably deeper groove than my Piettas. Maybe that's why the Ubertis are in the safe and the Piettas keep going to matches with me.

[john boy]

The 44 cal. cap&baller ball is,say, .451 and the rifling grooves .006 deep.

Here's some bore/groove dimensions measured with plug gauges for the lands and slugged for the grooves.  They are all from my C&B revolvers.  451 ... and 0.006 deep?

Firearm ........................Caliber -Lands - Grooves
Pietta 1858 NMA-7.5"      44cal   439   443
Pietta 1858 NMA-7.5"      44cal   439   443
Pietta 1858 NMA-5.5"      44cal   438   442
Pietta 1858 NMA-5.5"      44cal   438   442
Pietta 1851 Navy Colt      44cal   436   445
Pietta 1851 Navy Colt      44cal   438   445

[Smokin Gun]

Well Rifle I surely agree with ya on the accuracy and dimensions...and I know your reamed chambers are extremely accurate to 100+ yards easily... As well as the 49 year old shot to hell and back Centaure 1860 you revived for me with shallow rifling that has a .451 bore like the Pietta .44's do.
Now I have measured bores the old way by bumpin' up both sides as to a depth and removed measured and then use another soft lead .490" round ball and continue down the barrel. Measured with a set of Peacock dial calipers as I have no comparitor.
Measured in this fashion you can come real close to the Mfg. Specs on a barrel that's said to be a .451", .454", 456" lands and grooves and measuring chambers that coorespond to a stock cylinder of .445" or one that's .450" same as the forcing cone...
That's how I do it anyway and have figgered which is more accurate...my findings are that of Rifle's as he has has shared here.

[Fox Creek Kid]

John Boy, The Uberti '60 Armies I've slugged are right at that range as well. I'd be curious to know what your respective chambers are. With those measurements a fella could easily use a 0.450 chamber reamer, cut a good forcing cone and have cut a fat hog in the "hams". 

[rifle]

John Boy, interesting figures. I go by what the rifling grooves are listed at on paper. I look at Dixie Gun Works catalog that lists what the manufactures list the depths at.
The Remingtons usually have differernt specs than the 1860 Army Colts. Sorry...I tend to think in "Colt" terms. 
Anyway the catalog lists the Uberti Rem at .010 deep rifling grooves, the standard Pietta at .005 deep rifling, the Pietta ANTIQUED MODEL at .003 deep rifling, and the  Pietta "Shooters Model at .008 deep rifling. Interestingly the 36cal. Remington by Pietta is listed at .006 deep rifling.
See the difference there comparing the 44's to the 36cal. Rem? The 36cal. has deep rifling compared to it's ball diameter. Just like in the Colts.
Interesting is the fact the majority of shooters consider the Remington more accurate due to the full frame but.....as your measurements show and the Dixie catalog shows for some model Rems the rifling depth is shallow compared in a ratio to the ball diameter and that helps accuracy.
Anyway when you throw the Rems in here it confuses the issue when I was mainly thinking and posting in "Colt terms" and should have clarified that.
One thing I notice...the Uberti Remington has deep rifling at .010 for it's 44 ball to engrave into. The reports I get from shooters ,wherever I glean them, seem to tell me the Uberti Remington isn't as accurate as the Pietta Remington in 44 cal.
The difference in rifling depth may be the reason. The shallower grooves in the Pietta may make it more accurate.
Anyway the 36cal. Remingtons have deep grooves and when put in a ratio of ball size / rifling depth the 36 Rem is the same as the Colt revolvers at .006 deep rifling in Piettas.
Jonh Boy, The measurements you have listed for the "36's" have what? The one has rifling .009 deep and the other .007 deep.  THAT IS WHAT I'M BRINGING UP. The 36's have rifling too deep in my opinion. That must be the same for Colt or Remingtons as your 36 Rems show.
Compare some figures.....  .454ball/.006 rifling depth(Uberti Army Colt)   and   .375ball/.010 rifling depth(UbertiNavy Colt) Mathmatically I'd say the depth of rifling for a 36 ball ,when comparing 44's and 36's (assuming the 44's are proper enough rifling depths)and the rifling depths thay have(44's at .006 deep(Pietta) and 36's at .006 deep(Pietta), should be about  .0049 inch.
Do the same with  the 44's rifling depth at .006(Uberti or Pietta) and the 36's(Uberti Colt) at .010 and the 36's should still be at the .0049 depth.
Of course I figure the 44's should be.004 rifling depth and mathmaticall that buts the 36's in the ratio at less than .0049. That puts the 36's at .003 in. deep rifling.
Alright, screw the math because that's just a ratio with the 44's ball at .454  and it's rifling depth in the barrel at .004 deep and the 36's ball at .375 and looking for it's relative rifling depth for it's barrel  but...it can show that if the figures are put in a ratio and figured mathmatically the 44's having .004 depth of rifling considered proper(I do consider .004 proper for a 44 cap&baller) the 36's should have a rifling depth of .003 rounded to the nearest .001's.
Anywhoooo....the bottom line is......blackpowder fouling considered in the equation....the rifling should be about an inch and a half deep so the gun can still function at close range combat of 7to28 feet  and incapacitate an antaganist.   but.....
.....loading the revolver to accomodate or deal with the fouling from the blackpowder and have accuracy to boot the shooter would have to use some lube to keep the barrel relatively free of fouling. That accomodation would have to include Big Lube bullet types for shooting conicals or Lube Pills(grease cookies) on the powder /under the ball for lead round balls and........rifling grooves at,in my opinion .004 for the 36's and .005-6 for the 44's .
Anywhoooo......I've found that the 36's with the shallower grooves in the barrels shoot more accurately(I use lube pills on the powder and under the balls and shoot Colts) than the 36's with deeper rifling grooves. That's for Colts but it probably includes Remington 36's too. A 36 ball is a 36 ball no matter what gun it comes out of. Technically speaking that ain't true because the chambers size the balls differently in different guns but it's close enough in my opinion.
I'd put my 36 Pietta Colt up against any 36 Uberti Colt ,with the guns as they come out of the box ,and put money on a shoot.
I'd like to fly to California and visit Smoking Gun and challange him to a shoot even if he is a "Dead-Eye Shot" if he would be shooting his 36 cal. Uberti Navy Colt and I were shooting my Pietta Navy Colt. Guns unmodified and as they come from the box.
Now I'd use my Uberti Navy Colt to shoot targets and put money on that one too. I modified the Uberti navy so it has chambers .003 in. bigger in diameter than the diameter of the rifling grooves. During the rabbit season carrying the Uberti Navy I bulls-eyed 11 rabbits and they went into the frying pan. That's 11 shots and 11 rabbits at distances from 2 to 35 paces. ha ha ha ha  Hey I ain't downin Ubertis. I own several. Of course they shoot well enough. The chambers are all reamed larger than the rifling groove diameters and most all are 44's. But I still figure the rifling in the 36's are too deep.
The Pietta antiqued finished revolvers have the rifling at .003 and the chambers at the same diameter as the groove diameter of the barrels. That' different than the standard finish models. I'd bet the antiqued versions would shoot better with balls or conicals.
It's too bad there isn't an antiqued 36 cal. model with the .003 in. deep rifling. The antiqued "Josey Wales" model is 36 cal but I can't get any specs on it as to the rifling depth or the chamber size. I'd hope the rifling depth was .003 like the other antiqued models.
I have to mention something here before I ride into the sunset.
How Smoking Gun measures hid grooves and bores must be right since he's a rocket and jet builder in the aerospace Boeing Aeronautics field and has helped build jets and space shuttles.
I know one thing fer sure....if a pard measures a slug for the groove diameter of a barrel and doesn't "bump up the slug inside the barrel" to get a lead slug to measure .....the measurement won't be right and.....because of the seven grooved barrels of the cap&ballers it's a real tricky thing to measure groove and land diameters. There's a very small spot on a slug where the widdest meausement has to be taken. If a pard used calipers the calipers have to used very gently due to the soft lead used. Plug gauges would be difficult to use properly due to the curvature of the round hole in the barrels. I don't have plug gauges and have to use calipers. I don't measure land diameters much though. I'm always concerned with the groove diameters. What is a plug gauge? One of those small hole measurement tools?  Anyway, it's real tricky measuring a seven grooved barrel. What I iknow of it....if a Pard doesn't "bump up" the lead slug inside the barrel before pushing it out the groove diameter would show a coupla .001's under what it really is.  Remingtons usually are always good shooters and it's not just the full frame that makes them that way. The groove diameters of the barrels help too I bet.
Anywhoooo....I've got to get me some "Plug Gauges" so I can measure the danged lands easier. I don't measure lands very often. Always slugging for the groove diameter. The rifling depths elude me and I have to rely on what is listed in books like Dixies catalog but.....I always deal with the groove diameter to tune cap&baller revolvers....to ream chambers.

[Smokin Gun]

Ok Rifle I'm acceptin' you callin' me out...it'll be best outa five bean cans at 25, 50, and 75 yard burms...at the pistol house of the Desert Marksmen R&P Club.
I'll use my 1851 Navy Uberti the first round ... then the second match will be your Pietta agin' my Spiller&Burr, match three agin' my 1858 Euroarms Rem Hawes of L.A. So I'll give ya a chance to beat me 3 times :O)
Then we can go hunt Jack's and Rattlers...
I'd jus' like ta get ya out here ta have a good time ...

[Flint]

John Boy, your measurements are taken across an odd numbered rifling, and show the dimension from land to groove, not groove to groove...  I can be determined from that, but not directly measured.  The groove diameter is more on the order of .451.

[john boy]

... and show the dimension from land to groove, not groove to groove... 

Flint, unless I am doing it wrong, the calipers on the slug are measuring groove to groove

[Smokin Gun]

To measure the odd number of grooves/lands one needs to measure an outboard most groove edge to the opposite inboard most groove edge...this would give an accurate reading ... mine are also more of the .451" dimensions. I've been measuring many a barrel this way for 3 decades now, bumpin' up is an accurate trick to sluggin' a bore ... I have somewhat of an open mind and very willng to accept an easier more accurate method.
If I weren't off on Medical Leave soon to be Perminant Leave I'd bring um to a Comparitor or better yet a 5 axis Ziess and measure um... LoL!
But that I concider overkill :O) As long as we can keep gettin' good info and input on these forums we'll have it handled.

[rifle]

Smoking Gun......I doubt if I would actually beat you in a target game. It's just that I'd be paying for lunch anyway and that would be a fun way to do it. You can win the match and I'd pay you off and then you would be the gentleman you are and buy me lunch.
See that way I actually pay for lunch by letting you win the target match and believe you were paying for lunch. Lunch would have to be at HOOTERS after the match though.
Anywhooo...I have no doubt that John Boy is getting a good groove measurement especially with Hat Creek getting the same type of numbers.

[Smokin Gun]

I don't doubt any other's measurements either...I was only sayin' how I took mine groove to groove.

How about whoever shoots a Jack or Rattler First the other starts the campfire to cook ... jus' in case we're havin' too much fun for Hooters...LoL!
Yeah right...tell ya what I' do. Fly into Burbank Airport, I'll take ya right over to Hooters in town, call up my Son down the street...lunch is on me :O)