Hand priming tool for 56-50 cases with .650" rim diameter?

[El Supremo]

Hello:

I'm preparing to reload Rocky Mtn. cases using CH4D dies (not the Taylor version) for a Romano Spencer.

Are any of you experienced Spencer 56-50 reloaders using a HAND priming tool?  If so, please tell me what tool and shellholder combination works with these cases that have a .650" rim diameter?  So far as I can determine, neither Lee nor Hornady hand tools will accept even a turned-down press shell holder because of the basic rim OD of .650". 

Many thanks,

Kevin Tinny

[geo]

try RCBS. i've had mine so long i can't remember if they supplied the shell holder or not but the combo i have is 100%. good luck, geo.

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

The LEE won't do.  I have to use the priming arm on a regular press.  As far as I know the RCBS will work.

[El Supremo]

OK, with your help and a couple calls, problem solved via the RCBS "Universal" Priming tool PN 90201.  It has adjustable jaws.

Wilson can made a custom depriming BASE for the .650"OD, 56-50 Spencer rim and a punch pin with a tip diameter that is a bit UNDER the flash hole diameter of .080".  Wilson wants a sample case for this and it takes a couple weeks.

Next, I learned that the nominal sized, NOT expanded, case mouth diameter of a Rocky Mtn. 56-50 Spencer case from CH4D dies, is just at .500".  Into this would be seated a bullet sized to .512".  So the case trimming pilot should be that .500" NOMINAL diameter.  The case rim OD is .650" and either a Forster TRIMMER collet #5 or #6, should work in the "CLASSIC" case trimmer.  This has a cutter face with a diameter large enough for the cases.  Some trimmers don't so be careful and make sure.  I don't know which of the collets or if maybe both will grip the rim, so I have both coming.  Getting the pilot at .500" is the challenge.  It has to be custom ordered.  They do have a .505" readily available that could be reduced. 

Primer pockets:  Per Dave Casey at Rocky Mtn -- the OD's of either large RIFLE or PISTOL primers are the SAME.  ONLY the SIDE WALL depths to the junction of the bottom of the cup's EDGE differ, with the large RIFLE's being between .126" and .127", but the PISTOL's sidewall depth is less at .122".  A large PISTOL primer CAN be used in place of a large RIFLE primer if it is NOT pushed all the way down, but still seated at least FLUSH with the back of the case.  Some priming tools provide for this. 

Dave cautioned about annealing because the case mouth should be heated in a dimly lit room to a "DULL RED", NOT ORANGE color and most people don't know the difference, so they may burn some of the elements from the brass.  A description of his annealing setup is on his Rocky Mountain Cartridge website under pictures of the shop machinery.  He does not like the "rotating", sort of progressive annealing setups because they must be "fed" cases and can FAIL to uniformly rotate the case, thereby creating hot spots. One more bit of controversy:  Dave doesn't feel that annealing will "shrink" the diameter of case mouths/necks.  We used to dip large pistol cases about 1/4" into molten lead, but Dave doesn't think that would get them hot enough to do the job, which is either hot enough or won't achieve the right level of annealing. 

A better way, since ALL cartridge brass work hardens and must be annealed at 1,000F degeees, is to use the salt bath method of Ballistic Recreations.

Regards,

Kevin Tinny

[French Jack]

I always trimmed all my cases before they were resized.  That way you don't need undersize pilot. 

[Fox Creek Kid]

El Supremo, a LOT will change after you fire form the cases. Trust me. 

[El Supremo]

Correction and question:

First, the RCBS Universal hand priming tool with NOT accommodate the .650" rim diameter of the Rocky Mtn. 56-50 Spencer brass.
It's just a tad too tight and there's no easy way to open the diameter.  I'd been told that it would fit, but the BOX, NOT the company web description mentions a limitation to 45-70 rim diameter.

I'll have to go with another version that takes the standard shell holders and see if the CH4D shell holder for the 56-50 will fit into it.  Supposedly it will.

Oh, yes:  If someone wants the Forster case trimmer for the 56-50 it must be the CLASSIC with 5 3/8" base because ONLY the CLASSIC will accept the larger #5 and #6 collets to match the .650" rim and also have a trimmer cutter OD large enough.  TWO well regarded distributors have sent the "Original" trimmer in error.  The best way to be sure is to have someone READ the label on the box.  If it says it will take the #5 and larger collets, it should be OK IF IT HAS a 5 /3/8" base.  The .505" pilot fits unsized cases, but not sized ones from the CH4D dies.

Live and learn.  Thanks, again, Fox Creek Kid.

Regards,

Kevin

Hello, Fox Creek Kid:

Was your comment about a LOT will change a teaser?  Just wondering if there is anything I should know at this stage to avoid hard learned lessons, please?

[French Jack]

Paying for a special shellholder for the RCBS hand priming unit would be a pain, as you have to have one LONGER to allow for the rim cut to be above the priming unit, also necessitating a LONGER priming punch.  Not too good a way to go.  The old Lachmiller bench mounted would do, but haven't seen one in years.

The better way to go, other than using your press and it's primer seater, is to get a priming/depriming tool from one of the custom makers, Neil Jones, or Jerry Simmons. 

Buffalo Arms sells one, the Pope style, part #POPE5070, for $99.  www.buffaloarms.com

[Fox Creek Kid]

El Supremo, the cases are going to fire form out to a larger size. Some people FL resize very time and some don't. My only advice would be to anneal regularly if you FL resize every time to give better case mouth seal and to prevent case mouth cracks.

If you need to trim then you want the Lyman Universal trimmer which has a spring loaded head that will accept the large case head. However, FWIW I have seen no measureable stretching as it's a straight case as well as a low powered round with real BP.

When I first got my 56-50 Armisport carbine in Jan. 2004 there was no Starline brass and I tried some RMC cases. They are made well but if you do not anneal I guarantee you that they will split eventually at the case mouths.

[El Supremo]

Thanks, Fox Creek Kid:

BIG help.  Now we're cooking.  Your experience with the need for annealing is most appreciated.  After about too many years (50) of reloading I was reluctant to accept that NO annealing was ever necessary, even for RMTN's.  I have one of those copper tube circle annealing tips for a Bernz-O-Matic cylinder that's worked on many other calibers so that'll be the one for the 56-50.   

I found a Forster Classic 5 3/8" based trimmer at Lock, Stock and Barrel in Valentine, NE with .500" and .505" pilots so that's one hurdle taken.  Forster is a month behind on this version which takes the larger rims and mouth diameters.

Which lube do you prefer for rifles?  I presume that if the lube is OK for the longer barrel, it will also be fine for the carbine.

I used IPCO colloidal graphite lube in a Star sizer for years for rifle bullets, but ran out and switched to SPG, but have no experience with the 56-50 and a single grease groove.  The nice lady at Magma Engineering, which now supplies Star items, and my new .511", .512" and .513" sizing dies had no idea what IPCO lube was.  In years back we could take the 148 gr. 38 cal. hollow based wadcutters or the truncated nosed bullets, from H & G gang moulds, and lube them with IPCO and THEN roll them in Dow Z Moly sprinkled on wax paper and totally eliminate any leading in handguns, even .357's using hot loads of 2400 behind 358156's.

Do you load the 56-50 with any compression and any wad, please?

Many thanks,

Kevin

[Fox Creek Kid]

El Supremo, do a search in this particular forum as there is a ton of info re bullets & lube & opinions vary. Compression is contingent upon the type of BP used.