Meaning of "Frontier Cartridge"?

[August]

Howdy the camp.

I have been very naive in many things in my life.  Now, it appears, my ignorance has extended to, what I thought of as, the holy realm of black powder cowboy action shooting.

I "grew up" in this sport with pards that shot 44 w.c.f. and 38 w.c.f. and (some of 'em) Colt's .45 caliber.  They just filled the cases and slapped a boolit on top and called it good.  Lots of smoke, lots of noise, lots of fun.

Last week, I found myself shooting in a big match against someone who was shooting 96 grain boolits out of a .32 loaded with black powder.  It was the "Frontier Cartridge" class of shooters.

Needless to say, I found my 38 w.c.f. loads were not competitive with this shooter's kit.

Am I out of my mind, or does this strike the rest of you as an acceptable approach to the category "Frontier Cartridge."

Thanks for any comments that lead to restoring my sanity or, otherwise, broadening my horizon.

[Roosterman]

As long as there is 15gr of BP in the case I have no problems with it. I plan to shoot .36 navy C&B's tomorrow, my load is only 17 gr., but they still bark pretty good.

[john boy]

Am I out of my mind, or does this strike the rest of you as an acceptable approach to the category "Frontier Cartridge."

August - there obviously are 2 camps related to your concern:
No and Yes pertaining to Frontier cartridge bullet size.
There was a real long thread on the SASS Wire when Manatee proposed the 15gr rule that was was accepted by the Wild Bunch and voted in at the TG's Sumit meeting.  So, it is what it is.

Unfortunately, Speed is now the denominator in this CAS sport.  Also, with the Wild Bunch running a private corporation, they want to appease as many present and potential shoots as possible because $$$$$.$$ is their denominator.

As for me - I would rule out 32's as a main match caliber unless the shooter was so disabled they had to be rolled to the line on a gurney 

[Dick Dastardly]

Howdy August,

I shot BPGF this morning.  Sometimes it gets called FCGF.  No difference to me.  I was shootn' a brace of 1960 open tops with Kirst Konverter cylinders and AJs Cowboy 45 Special brass filled with a compressed charge of FFFg Holy Black under J/P 45-200 Big Lube bullets.  I had some grumbling about the "concussion" of my guns.  That's a 1.3cc or 20 grains ± ½ grains of powder.  That load gives very mild recoil, plenty of flames smoke and boom.

Don't go the low trail.  There's plenty of Big Bore loads that can compete with the puny guns and do it with man size calibers.

FWIW, my .357 Magnum RVs frequently run on a diet of Snakebite Greasewagon Big Lube™ bullets in 38 special cases filled with a compressed charge of  . . . . . . 1.3cc of FFFg Holy Black.  Never any complaints there.

There's a lot you can do short of resorting to pink underwear loads that will let you compete head to head with the piff-ting pretenders.  Enjoy your guns and your game.  The belt buckles don't all go to giddy up go gamers.

DD-DLoS

[Jefro]

As long as there is 15gr of BP in the case I have no problems with it. I plan to shoot .36 navy C&B's tomorrow, my load is only 17 gr., but they still bark pretty good.

Howdy August, I have no problem as long as they are within the rules. I shoot BPGF most of the time with the 38 Snakebite, plenty of smoke and flame when loaded full of 3f Schuntzen. BPGF is not an approved category, but with the growing support of match directors, it is often recognized if we can get a handfull of shooters to sign up. Get together with yer shooting pards and the MD to have Warthog recognized, this has become a popular sub-category. As for the 32 caliber, the WB decided to allow the 32 HR. However the 32-20 is a historically accurate cartridge used often in the 1800's. I have an original 1873 Winchester 32-20 that is a blast to shoot. Get together with some more Warthogs and get the party started. Good Luck.

Jefro

[Will Penny]

As long as there is 15gr of BP in the case I have no problems with it. I plan to shoot .36 navy C&B's tomorrow, my load is only 17 gr., but they still bark pretty good.

What do you know?? you been two handing it all summer trying to be fast, come back to the fold and shoot FC Duelist with the real men.

[Wills Point Pete]

 We tend to think of the second half of the 1800s as being something it was not. There were bazillions of small guns. The .32-20 was popular, so were the smaller S&W cartridges, .32 S&W, the .38 S&W.
Since there wasn't much in the way of antibiotics and durned few bad guys full of dope, powder was a lot less important then. Any center hit was apt to be fatal, eventually.
The larger Colt SAA cartridges belonged to the small minority that needed power, something that would drop a mean longhorn or bad horse before it dragged a cowboy to death. Thing is, there were a lot more farmers than cowboys. And storekeepers, gamblers, etc. I suspect that there were a whole lot of guns chambered for that powerhouse .41 Rimfire, too.
While I shoot a larger cartridge I regret that I cannot afford a pair of .32-20 revolvers and a Model '92 in .32WCF. If some miracle happens and I start needing a Brinks Truck to carry my pocket change, that's what I'll buy, first thing.

[Fox Creek Kid]

Wills Point Pete, excellent post well founded in history. However, I'd venture a guess that very few people shoot CAS to imitate a shopkeeper or a wheelwright.    The problem is most people cannot shoot a handgun worth a damn and heavier recoiling calibers are the hardest to master. Few sane individuals would walk into the Longbranch knowing they were going to shoot it out with Bad Bob and take a S&W Lemon Squeezer.  However, then as today, there were/are people who carry little mouse guns for reason of portability and not because it's a "manstopper". The problem is (as I see it) there are not too many people shooting a little .32 in an original "format", but rather a modern Ruger and using "mouse fart" loads because quite simply they want to win.

There's a story told by people who saw it of a man in CA who admonished one of the top SASS shooters after a match for using a SAA clone with "gamer" .38 loads. The "gamer" then accepted a challenge by this man to shoot a side match using a SAA type gun with full bore Warthog .45 Colt REAL BP loads and had his butt handed to him by the challenger who shot it one handed duelist while the Big Shot shot two handed. A friend of mine saw it. 

[Will Penny]

What do you know?? you been two handing it all summer trying to be fast, come back to the fold and shoot FC Duelist with the real men.

Roosterman shot a clean 6 stage match today with cap & Ball, a old beat up 12 gage, and a Henry 1860  in FC Dualist.. Well done Rooster ..I believe they were little 36 cal. Navy's to boot..   a Squeaky clean match it says on the certificate...

[Fairshake]

I agree with where you were going with your post August. The 36 CB are quite different from a 32 Ruger shooting a 95 gr bullet from a cartridge case. Alot more prep work! If WBH shot them then they are correct for the sport. Find me a page in history where the main person was shooting it out with 32 BP cartridge guns. I'm not talking about some soiled dove in a barroom. The person that August was shooting against was doing everything they could to circumvent the rules and come out with a win. This sport has come a long way from what it started out. Back in the eary 70's I started shooting IHSMA and my registration  # 725 makes me an eary member. I shot a Ruger Blackhawk in 41 mag. My friend Greg Phares won the first Louisiana State Match with a Ruger Blackhawk in 44 mag with a score of 27. If you don't think that getting away from what was started, just look at IHSMA today. I'm with you on this August.

[Missouri Marshal]

FYI  there is no 15gr minimum.  The standard is Smoke equivalent to 1.0cc of Goex from a .38spl.  Some of he subs smoke more than regular BP and do not require as much powder to meet the minimum standard.  I know a little lady that was shooting .32H&R full of 777.  She made plenty of smoke.

[Dutchman Dick]

Out of curiosity, what about the .32 rimfire? Granted, there were a lot of pocket guns made in that caliber, but what about the S&W Model 2 "Old Army"? Other than foreign guns like the Perrin, Raphael, and Lefaucheaux guns, these were, to the best of my knowledge, the only Civil War era cartridge revolvers that were (at the time) considered to be "adequate" for defensive purposes. The Model 2, despite its small caliber and sheath trigger, is more of a "belt pistol" due to its barrel length, and was a very popular private-purchase gun for not only civilians but also those military officers and enlisted men who could afford them. Using either Navy Arms shells (if you can find them), or the reloadables from DGW, a "Model 2" would make for an authentic main match gun, and be great for "style", too!

[Curly Red Ryder]

FYI  there is no 15gr minimum.  The standard is Smoke equivalent to 1.0cc of Goex from a .38spl.  Some of he subs smoke more than regular BP and do not require as much powder to meet the minimum standard.  I know a little lady that was shooting .32H&R full of 777.  She made plenty of smoke.

And you can add a little more smoke using flour as a filler in your cartriges

[george rodgers]

Two "wrongs" do not make a "right". Stick with your normal loads and enjoy your shoot.