Case-hardening

[Skeeter Lewis]

I see that some cap-and-ball Ubertis and Piettas have CCH. Is this period-correct? Skeet

[Fingers McGee]

Yes

FM

[Raven]

Fingers McGee is correct in that Colts were Colorcased in the 1800's

But the type of Colorcase that the Italians do is not Historicaly correct! The Italians do either Cyanide colorcase or a chemical colorcase. Colt did Bone Colorcase which is much richer looking with much more brilliant colors!

Raven

[Flint]

The color cased Remington "58", however, is not authentic.  Only the hammer was color cased on that revolver.  Also, the Italians color case the 1875 Remington, which is not authentic, that revolver had a color cased hammer and loading gate, everything else was blue, as was the 1890.

Colts were all color cased, except the Patterson.  From the Walker on up, Colt color cased the frame, hammer, loading lever and ram.  The only Colts all blue were the Target guns, often the Bisley.

[Skeeter Lewis]

Thanks, pards.

[andy42s]

I have a Uberti 1851. I'm considering "antiquing" it. I did this to a ruger new vaquero, and the color case came off with the bluing. I didn't realize there was such a thing as faux color case. If I were to strip the blue off the Uberti with vinegar, would the color case come off as well?

[Raven]

The Color in Colorcase is just on the surface of the metal and is very thin. It will fade a lot with vinager but the metal will still have a hard case several thousanths of an inch deep.

Regards
Raven

[andy42s]

Thanks Raven. I'll probably go ahead and do it. I just want to maintain some of the case coloring. I was amazed with the vaquero, as it wasn't even case hardened. It was just a finish, almost like colored laquer. It came right off, and left no trace.

[Montana Slim]

Thanks Raven. I'll probably go ahead and do it. I just want to maintain some of the case coloring. I was amazed with the vaquero, as it wasn't even case hardened. It was just a finish, almost like colored laquer. It came right off, and left no trace.

Right!

Rugers are likely a 4140/4340 or similar alloy steel, though-hardened.....which coincidently does not readily accept case-hardening.

Case-hardening requires a low-carbon steel...can be an alloy though...8620 is a typical high-quality receiver steel used in many traditional firearms.

Regards,
Slim

[Nueces]

Hate to tell you this Slim but yer information is wrong or simply just repeating what you were taught or heard. There are finishers out there including Doug Turnbull himself who are color case hardening chrome moly. You are right about the material though it is 4140. There is a difference in what a steel was designed for and what can be done to it if you simply try it. Who told you it wouldnt readily accept case hardening?

[Texas John Ringo]

Ruger receivers are investment cast, not forged. If you look at a lot of blued Rugers (handguns & long guns) you will see a purplish tint, this is the result of the casting, it doesn't take the blueing like a forged receiver.
Also Rugers are not case hardened, the color is a chemical stain to some what resemble case color.

[Nueces]

no one has said that rugers are forged. anyone who knows anything about rugers knows most of them have a lot of cast parts. those rugers arent purple because they are cast they are purple because of the silicon in the steel they add for casting. the guy who could tell lecture on it until you passed out isn't here right now. im a ruger guy and he told me everything I ever wanted to know about the metals in rugers.  you can case harden a ruger like I said there are gunsmiths that do it and Im not talking about the original finish on a ruger. anyone who tells you that you cant case harden a ruger is wrong.

[Flint]

As the previous said, Rugers can indeed be Color Case Hardened.  Whether or not the surface is then really any harder isn't as important as the fact that the colors can be there.  This is beside the fact that the factory Ruger Vaqueros were NOT really color cased, but colored in a different manner, not because the steel couldn't be color cased, but because whatever Ruger was doing was cheaper than real color case. 

Years ago King's Gun Works built a couple 3-screw(?) Blackhawks into "Vaqueros" (before there was such a thing) by welding and reshaping the Blackhawksinto a Colt shape, and color casing like a Colt, I believe it was for Hank Williams Jr.  In any case (parden the pun) they did take the colors, as do Doug Turnbull's efforts available these days.

[Montana Slim]

I did mispeak when I said It can't be done....however, there are trade-offs in casehardening an alloy steel which already has a high carbon content...they are (1) the resulting casehardened surface will be harder and likely deeper than you want on a cased part, (2) you will affect the prior though-hardened characteristics of the material. Example: Bone-type case requires a water quench....rapid quench of this nature can super-harden high carbon alloy steels...posible internal fracturing of the structure may result.

As an engineer (military weapons) I would NOT choose to caseharden anything other than a low carbon steel....some alloy steels also caseharden wonderfully, but they are also low carbon content.

Of course when I speak of casehardening...my main concern is case depth & core toughness. Appearance is secondary, although I know how to make that happen as well.

Regards,
Slim

Edit to add: BTW, anything with a xx40 in it is NOT low-carbon steel.

[Texas John Ringo]

no one has said that rugers are forged. anyone who knows anything about rugers knows most of them have a lot of cast parts. those rugers arent purple because they are cast they are purple because of the silicon in the steel they add for casting. the guy who could tell lecture on it until you passed out isn't here right now. im a ruger guy and he told me everything I ever wanted to know about the metals in rugers.  you can case harden a ruger like I said there are gunsmiths that do it and Im not talking about the original finish on a ruger. anyone who tells you that you cant case harden a ruger is wrong.

LOOK did I say anywhere you could not case harden a Ruger, just that the finish is a chemical stain, everyone may not be as knowledgeable as you. As far as the forged/cast, just stating the fact.

[Nueces]

LOOK did I say anywhere you could not case harden a Ruger, just that the finish is a chemical stain, everyone may not be as knowledgeable as you. As far as the forged/cast, just stating the fact.

Yer right, my apologies. You did just as I did, just state the facts. I shot a little too fast on that one.

[andy42s]

I just started on the antiquing of my 1851. It is NOT case hardened. Just a faux finish like the vaquero.

[Raven]

I can just about garauntee that that your 1851 is case hardened.

The colors are oxides that are just a few molecules thick. The way light reflects off them is what causes the pretty colors much like oil on water. The color is very delicate and easy to remove but the metal is still hard (reletivly) under the color.

Most of the reproduction pistols are cyanide colorcased, the Colts are bone colorcased. But they are all casehardened. Even Nickled guns are casehardened.

Raven

[Trailrider]

Hate to tell you this Slim but yer information is wrong or simply just repeating what you were taught or heard. There are finishers out there including Doug Turnbull himself who are color case hardening chrome moly. You are right about the material though it is 4140. There is a difference in what a steel was designed for and what can be done to it if you simply try it. Who told you it wouldnt readily accept case hardening?

Most steels can be case hardened (the color depends on the method).  The process involves imparting a high carbon content for a few thousandths of an inch in depth, and then quenching and tempering.  Case hardening is used with low alloy, low carbon steels to improve surface hardness and wear resistance.  The base metal, though not especially strong, has ductility that is lacking in the case hardened portions. Thus, you get a hardened surface with a tougher base.  With alloy steels, the metal is heat treated to a high strength (as appropriate to the application) throughout the metal part.  The colors produced as a byproduct of case hardening are not present with alloy steels.  Ruger uses a chemical process to create the colors.  They are not terrible permanent, however.  Incidentally, the colors produced by actual case hardening are NOT terribly permanent either! Especially with continued exposure to sunlight, they will fade to a mottled gray, which is the way you see a LOT of old casehardened guns, anyway.