Remington 58s do run long. . .

Dick Dastardly · August 04, 2007, 08:27:04 PM

I had the pleasure of shooting with two great pards this morning. Silas McFee and Bushwack Jacksack made smoke at Beloit along with myself and Pukin' Dog and a few others. We did smoke up the valley considerable.

Silas was shootn' the new Remington 58 he won at last year's OWS banquet. It's equiped with a fine Kirst Konverter cylinder. He was shootn' AJs Cowboy 45 Special brass with a compressed charge of FFFg Holy Black under a Big Lube™ EPP-UG 150 grain bullets. After the match we decided that the gun was still running so good without any spray, wipe or treatment that we would continue a torture test. After field cleaning the gun, we extended the shooting until we ran out of those curious little bullets. After over 50 more test shots the gun continued to run fine booth for accuracy and function. There was hardly any binding of the cylinder on the base pin. The cylinder would still spin quite easily. Back at the ranch, complete cleanup was very quick and easy.

From my 7½" ROAs, these bullets graph at 850 fps and are very accurate. In fact the accuracy was so good that we quit shooting at pistol targets and shot the rifle targets and finally ended up shooting the rifle bonus targets.

So, here is a C&B pistol shooting a bullet that emulates a round ball but without any wads or over bullet smears or other treatment. The bullets were simply lube/sized and loaded in the little C45S brass. I'd be hard pressed to say if it is the Pearl Lube II, the Big Lube™ bullet design, the Kirst Konverter or the combination of all of these, but this is one Remington 58 that definitely didn't suffer from the common fouling problems frequently reported with that design and long shot strings with Holy Black.

DD-DLoS

Here's the URL for the article, thanks to Hedley Lamar over on The Open Range.

http://www.theopenrange.net/articles/1858_remington_big_lube_bullet_torture_test.pdf

Adirondack Jack · August 04, 2007, 09:17:36 PM

My experience with the EPPs with 777 and C45S cases in the Rugers is they run a long ways and suffer very little if any need for ablutions. Ran em at the NorEaster in 90+ degree heat and only ran a damp cloth over the front of the cylinders after five stages and they ran as good or better the second day as on day one with ZERO cleaning of the guns themsevels and overnight "storage" in 90%+ humidity and a second day of 90+ and air ya could cut with a knife.

The rifle ran 100% as well, using 200 grain JP bullets and C45S cases and NO overnight ablutions. Ran 10 stages and the last stage was as good or better than the first.

Gotta love em.

Howdy Doody · August 04, 2007, 09:42:53 PM

I am giving all that a good test next week at W3G World Cup. I am shooting C&B, ROAs with EPP-UG boolits, AJ 45 spl brass with the EPP-UG boolit for rifle and gone back to SXS shotgun. I gave up on the '87 shotgun for a while.
Since I have already shot this combo before, and had zero problems and good accuracy. I even have 3 clean matches with that combo and I hope to have another.

The only drawback? After this event I need to get to casting. Since I cast for myself and another pard that also shoots the little EPP-UG, I need to get a slew of them cast up. Luckily, I don't have to lube size for him, just mine.

Adirondack Jack · August 04, 2007, 10:50:30 PM

Quote from: Howdy Doody on August 04, 2007, 09:42:53 PM
I am giving all that a good test next week at W3G World Cup. I am shooting C&B, ROAs with EPP-UG boolits, AJ 45 spl brass with the EPP-UG boolit for rifle and gone back to SXS shotgun. I gave up on the '87 shotgun for a while.
Since I have already shot this combo before, and had zero problems and good accuracy. I even have 3 clean matches with that combo and I hope to have another.

The only drawback? After this event I need to get to casting. Since I cast for myself and another pard that also shoots the little EPP-UG, I need to get a slew of them cast up. Luckily, I don't have to lube size for him, just mine.

Be waiting to hear how ya do at the W3G event.

Driftwood Johnson · August 05, 2007, 07:44:47 AM

Howdy

Interesting results. I can tell you that my Remmies do not run particularly well with the the J/P 45-200 bullet lubed with SPG in a Schofield case over about 28 grains of FFg. I have to clean the base pin and the cylinder face just about every cylinder full or they start to bind. They don't run particularly well with the PRS 250 grain bullet either. So I think you can remove the Big Lube design from the equation. My Remmies are equipped with R&D cylinders. So maybe it is the lube, or maybe it is the brand of cylinders. But I have not been impressed with my Remmies performance with Big Lube bullets. The bullets do fine in a cylinder with a raised cylinder bushing like a Colt or a Ruger, but the flat face of the Remmie cylinder just does not do as well in my experience.

Noz · August 05, 2007, 10:59:37 AM

What Driftwood said.

Dick Dastardly · August 05, 2007, 02:10:06 PM

The pistol in question was made by Pietta (sp). Fit and finish were much better than previous products from that company. Walt Kirst did fit the Kirst Konverter cylinder to the gun. It's interesting that the dang C&B cylinder that came with the gun miked at .448" at the chamber mouth and the barrel slugs at .454". It's a wonder that the gun could be expected to hit anything shot from the C&B cylinder. Walt is reaming the chambers out to .454".

The bullets being shot were loaded in C45 Spl brass. The velocity is high, 950 fps over my Ohler 33 graph. Perhaps one factor in the fine performance could be the very high ratio of lube to bullet weight. This bullet hauls near as much lube as a PRS but only weighs 150 grains. Anyway, we will be watching this gun to see how often we can repeat that performance.

FWIW, we were running the dirtiest powder on my shelf. LIDU. . . . .

DD-DLoS

Halfway Creek Charlie · August 05, 2007, 08:32:12 PM

FWIW
I shoot Original Remy '58 Conversions in 44 Rem/Colt C.F. (the original Remington cartridge for original Colt and Remington Conversions) it is an outside lubed heeled bullet. I use Bore Butter for a lube, I lube after crimping in a 450 Lyman Lubrisizer filled with Bore Butter. I use Olive oil for the internals and the cylinder pins. I do put a bit of Bore Butter in one chamber face in each pistol just because I can. My Remy's easily go 5 stages without having to be cleaned or wiped down.
If I were to go to an internal lubed bullet I believe I'd use an over powder wad and lube with the bore butter. I am a believer in non petroluem based lubes for all my BP guns.

Dick Dastardly · August 05, 2007, 08:50:10 PM

Howdy Charlie,

That's a lot of words for a simple lube/sized boolit that will do it all and have change to spare. We'll run more tests, but in both the 58 and ROAs the results are similar. Shoot long, shoot accurate and don't worry about fouling.

Admittedly the ROAs will run far longer then the 58s, but both did very well with the curious lil EPP-UG boolits.

The C45S brass doesn't waste space and makes for a great base for the EPP-UG bullet. This rig is so efficient that Colt should have found it sooner. Of course, they did when they brought out the 1911. . . .

DD-DLoS

Adirondack Jack · August 05, 2007, 09:03:22 PM

DD, the tight throats are not really a problem with the EPP bullet. Yer getting a fair smack in the butt before the bullet even moves (note the powder stain on the brass that ends at the point where the bullet base was, indicating case seal before the bullet moves and sufficient pressure to obdurate BH11 lead), it gets squished good in the throats, then slams into the forcing cone and will obdurate again. The EPP "rivits" readily when smacked

My Roogers do it all the time. with throats not over .449 or so, and .451 barrel.

Mason Stillwell · August 06, 2007, 08:11:57 AM

Well I am gonna chime in here. I gots lots of 58's and they all will run an 8 stage match without doing anything cept loading and shooting.

I use the EPP-UG in them and my ROA's . I also use a round ball sometimes they still work.

Now I will NOT use spg in anything. I use Thompson's PS bp lube in all my BP Big Lube Boolits (TM)

Will be shooting the new finish (plumb brown) short 58/s this weekend along with my mid barreled 36 cal. 58 up in Payson.

I spect nothing but great shooting.

Mason

Dick Dastardly · November 28, 2008, 09:56:08 AM

Here, at long last, is the complete article by Silas McFee. Thanks Hedley Lamar of The Open Range for posting the PDF file.

http://www.theopenrange.net/articles/1858_remington_big_lube_bullet_torture_test.pdf

DD-DLoS

P.S. I edited and added this URL to my initial post also.

Deadguy · November 28, 2008, 01:19:29 PM

My experiences with my '58 Remmie go like this. When I shoot it with the cap n ball cylinder (throats reamed to .455") and use 30 grains FFF, one of my homemade lubricated over powder wads, and the Lee 200 grain REAL bullet, it will shoot all day without the cylinder binding up. HOWEVER, when I shoot it with an R&D .45 colt conversion cylinder loaded with a full case of FFF, over powder card, lubricated wad, and a 250 grain boolit, the cylinder will bind up and lock solid every 5-6 shots.