Help with Winchester 45-90 lever action.

[hoochkkk]

Hi Folks,

I am new to your forum but not to shooting and guns.

Against personal preference I bought a gun from out of state gun company. I thought I was buying a 45-70 lever action winchester with 26 inch octagon barrel.

Well the gun arrived and it is a 45-90 lever action and on the gun barrel it says to use only black powder ammo.

I talked to the gun company and they say I can shoot somkeless powder ammo in both 45-70 and 45-90??

Can you please give me some suggestions. Meanwhile I am waiting to call Winchester direct as well.

Thanks.

[Trailrider]

Howdy, Pard,
I need a bit more information from you.  Is this a Winchester, and if so, what model?  There were two basic Winchesters chambered in .45-90, the M1886 lever action repeater and the M1885 HiWall.

The statement on the barrel that is for "black powder only" suggests it is a reproduction, as the majority of those two Winchesters were made before the advent of smokeless powder, though the later ones, made up to about 1932, were stamped "Winchester Proof Steel, Especially for smokeless powder" (or approximately those words).

In point of fact, though I would NOT try to make a .458 Winchester Magnum out of an '86 or a HiWall, the actions are plenty strong for reasonable smokeless loads.  The Lyman handloading manuals list loads that should be okay for the .45-90.  The main caveat for the .45-90 is that in the original Winchesters this cartridge was regarded as an "Express" cartridge, which meant they were trying to get higher velocities from black powder loadings by going to lighter bullets.  Therefore, they made the rifling twist in the .45-90 quite a bit slower than in the .45-70.  The .45-90 in original Winchesters generally had a 1-turn-in-32" twist, as opposed to 1-20" or 1-22" twist for the .45-70.  The overall length of the .45-90  cartridge was also limited by the length of the action, whereas in .45-70, you could use quite a bit heavier (longer) bullet. With the single shot, overall cartridge length doesn't mean as much.

With the 1-32" twist, the cartridge was generally intended for 300 grain bullets, but I have gotten pretty fair accuracy with bullets up to 385 gr.  But, they have to be seated deeper for use in the '86 in order to feed from the magazine.  The other "problem" with the .45-90 case is that with lighter loads, there is that much more room for smokeless powder to flop around in the case than in .45-70, so one might want to use bulkier powders, such as IMR-3031.  I would NOT use fast-burning pistol powders like Unique or even Trail Boss in such a big case.  5744 is also a good choice. 

You can shoot .45-70 ammo in the .45-90, but, again use lighter bullets.  The 405 grain is probably as heavy as you can go, and may be too heavy to stabilize in a slower-twist barrel.  As with shooting .44 Specials or .44 Russian in a .44 Magnum or .38 Specials in a .357 Magnum chamber, you will probably get powder buildup ahead of the shorter case, and eventually you might erode the forward end of the chamber, but you can do it, if no .45-90 brass is available, as the cartridges headspace on the rim, and the only difference is that the .45-90 has a 2.4" case, vs. the 2.1" of the .45-70.

Hope this helps...

If this is a reproduction, I'm not quite sure why they limited it to black powder, unless they simply didn't proof it for smokeless.     

[DR.A.W.FAST]

You can check actual date of manufacture here:

http://armscollectors.com/sn/winlookup.php?file=win1886.dat

This wil give you some idea of how close to actual smokeless powder load times. .45=90 brass can easily be found. everal companiesmake brass for thembecause the are used in many competition matches still. Adhere to what TrailRider tells you Its good advice!

Doc

[hoochkkk]

Thanks for the replies.

I did get more information about the gun. It is described as "Winchester 1886 Fixed Frame 45-90", manufactured in 2004.
It does have the manufactured place in Japan on the barrel. It is a beautiful gun.
The only other piece of information on the barrel states that it requires 45-90 black powder cartridge.

Further, I called Winchester/Browning in Utah and asked their customer service as to shooting 45-70/45-90 cartridges in smokeless powder out of this gun. They concurred that I can.

However, I am still skeptical, did not get his name and id for my record, in case this information may not be accurate. Sorry, but once you pull the trigger, the act is done and I don't want to either blow the gun and or hurt myself due to this carelessness.

My intention is to reload the ammo in 45-70 using smokeless powder using IMR 3031 and 300 grain hollow point bullet.

[Delmonico]

Do not use 45-70 in a 45-90, both are tapered cases, not straight cases like 38/357 or 22 short/22 LR.

The chamber is wider where the mouth of the 45-70 is in the 45-90, it can cause case splitting and chamber eroision.  Yes lots have done it and got away with it.  But there are lots of things you can do till they catch up with you and the poop hits the rotating device that makes breeze.

[hoochkkk]

Thanks for the info. I am going to take a note of your comments.

I don't get it then. Why would Winchester/Browning Company I called, listed manufacturer would say I could. I will call on Monday and ask about the comments that were made.

Anyhow... the deed is done. Went to the range today and fired off 50 rounds of 45-70 out of the gun. Mechanically, the gun handled the shorter cartridges just fine during the lever action operations. It has nice kick to it, I would imagine how much more the 45-90 would be.

If anyone interested, here is my load data:
Primer: Federal 210
Powder: IMR 3031, I used scale and weigh 50 Grains for each cartridge
Bullet: 300 Grain lead flat nose
Lee Die set and Lee hand press
I invested in buying the Lee Crimp tool, but was not able to crimp the bullet since the cartridge case would go all the way into the die. Not sure how to use it.

[Trailrider]

Howdy, again, Pard,
There should be no reason not to shoot smokeless in the Winchester/Browning/Moroku M1886.  This is a modern-manufactured rifle, with higher strength steel than the originals.  HOWEVER, as I posted before, that is not to say you can turn the .45-90 into a .458 Magnum!  The load you list is at the bottom end of .45-70 data for the '86 shown in the Lyman Manual #48th Edition, so with the larger case capacity, you will probably get lower velocities and pressures.  IMR3031 isn't the cleanest-burning smokeless powder in straight taper cases, but it does bulk up pretty well.  You may want to increase the charge, but will have more recoil.

With smokeless powder, you need to keep the bullet from being pushed into the case, so I recommend a seating/roll crimping die. I have used RCBS dies for years, but if you are confined to a hand tool, I'd recommend a Lyman #310 tool with .45-70 dies backed off to handle the .45-90 cases.  As long as the brass is fired in just this rifle, you probably can get away without full-length resizing except once in awhile.  You can probably buy a standard .45-90 full-length sizing die, and lube the case, followed by pressing the case into the die except for the last 1/8-inch or so using a bench vise.  You can then drive the case out of the die with a 5/16" diameter x 3 inch long bolt.  This doesn't have to be done each time you fire it, only if the cases chamber hard.

I will have to partially disagree with Delmonico about the .45-70 brass splitting if fired in the .45-90 chamber.  Not if it is properly annealed by the factory! If you are getting longitudinal case splits after one or two firing of .45-70 brass, changes brands!

I DO AGREE that continued firing of .45-70 ammo in the longer chamber can contribute to erosion of the chamber, but you get the same problem with .44 Specials in a .44 Magnum chamber, and .38 Specials in a .357 Magnum, etc., etc.  You'd have to fire thousands of rounds to really create a problem.   Just clean the chamber with a brass bristle brush.  With .45-90 brass now available, it isn't as necessary to shoot .45-70 ammo as it was 30-40 years ago.  As with the .44 Specials, etc., your accuracy may suffer due to the bullet having to jump further to get to the rifling. 

One more thing... If you shoot jacketed bullets in your rifle, be sure to clean the bore thoroughly before going back to lead bullets or you will experience leading.  Going the other way isn't so much of a problem.

Hope this helps, Pard!

[Delmonico]

I will have to partially disagree with Delmonico about the .45-70 brass splitting if fired in the .45-90 chamber.  Not if it is properly annealed by the factory! If you are getting longitudinal case splits after one or two firing of .45-70 brass, changes brands!

I DO AGREE that continued firing of .45-70 ammo in the longer chamber can contribute to erosion of the chamber, but you get the same problem with .44 Specials in a .44 Magnum chamber, and .38 Specials in a .357 Magnum, etc., etc.  You'd have to fire thousands of rounds to really create a problem.   Just clean the chamber with a brass bristle brush.  With .45-90 brass now available, it isn't as necessary to shoot .45-70 ammo as it was 30-40 years ago.  As with the .44 Specials, etc., your accuracy may suffer due to the bullet having to jump further to get to the rifling. 

Sorry, comparing 44Sp/44 mag or 38 sp/357 mag to 45-7-/45-90 is almost comparing apples to oranges in some ways.  The straight case is the same dia. all of it's length, so the case mouth has the same amount to expand no matter where it is in the chamber.  A shorter case in a tapered case has to expand more at the mouth than the proper one, so you work your brass far more.  Also if it does not seal all the way tight before the bullet exits the case, you have at least a small amount of gas leakage that has to make a 180 degree turn, any gas that has to make that amount of turn puts a 90 degree flame on the chamber wall which will erode the metal far more than a flame that goes straight down the bore.

The problem that often crops up with the shooting of straight cases that are short is a build up of fouling, lead or copper, this can cause hard chambering if not removed.  If there is any damage to the meatal in this case it is caused by corrosion under the fouling that has not been removed, the affect is the same but the cause is much differant, one is causled by slow oxidation, the other is much faster.

Also if one looks, the OAL of the loade round one both of the meantioned straight pistol rounds are the same in SAMMI specs, the longer case is used to frevent the higher pressure loads from being chambered in a gun not designed to handle the pressure.  So there is no more "jumpto the rifling in either, just less chamber protected by the brass case.

Also the 45-90 round ( A different round than the 45-2.4 as used by Sharps and others, although the case is the same as the 45-90) was designed as an express round by Winchester to use a 300 gr bullet.  The OAL lenght of that round is the same or real close to the 45-70 with a 405 or 500 grain bullet.

With 45-90/45-2.4 brass easy to get, why wouldanyone want to even risk the problems that can result.  Esp when you meantion neck sizing cases, never really a good idea in any repeater, little if anything is to be gained because you work the case mouth in either case, the place where every case split I have ever seen starts.  All neck sizing will do is to increase the risk of getting a case stuck in the chamber, a PIA either on a rifle range or even worse in the field.   Remember, single-shots and lever guns do not have the caming action to start the case out of the chamber like a bolt action rifle has.  The bolt gun also has the camming action to get a oversized round into the chamber.

When dealing with a true bottlenecked round esp with nitro powders is is often best to partial size, working the body and neck and putting a slight bumpon the shoulder such as I do in my 99 Savage in 243. this keeps one from pushing the shoulder to far back and causing head seperations after a few rounds, a common problem in many 30-30's.

[Trailrider]

Delmonico,
All good points.  The only reason I mentioned the Lyman 310 tool, and neck sizing is that hoochkkk mentioned using the Lee hand tool, from which I infer he doesn't have a bench press.  I have used both methods in both .45-2.4" in a HiWall (.45-70 chamber punched out before I got it to .45-90, with a 1-19" twist rifling), and an original .45-90 '86.  For best reliability I do recommend full length resizing, especially if you are using the ammo in several different rifles.

With the .45-90 brass fairly readily available from several sources, there is no real reason to utilize .45-70 ammo...except in an emergency (whatever that might be.  )

[hoochkkk]

Thanks for the feed back.

All of my concerns were centered around ruining the chamber using cartridge other than recommended by the manufacturer.
That is why I will continue to use soft lead bullets for the time being and eventually progress to loading the recommended 45-90 ammo for the gun.
I did check the specs for the Accurate Gun powder as recommended and didn't see any load data on 45-90. What experience have you seen using this brand versus the IMR 3031 if any?

Also, my powder charge of 50 Grains, I selected since I obtained two load data tables from two different books that conflicted. One recommends using 54.7 Grains for Hornady bullets versus the other that recommends 51.5 Grains for using Nosler bullets. Since I am using a lead flat nose 300 Grain bullet generic manufacturer, I chose to use 50 Grains of powder. Any thoughts on how your reasoning for selecting powder measure will be different?