Black Powder or smokeless & loads

[Shenandoah]

In another post I was nudged to shoot BP in my Spencer.     And I might when I get a .50 (I have a .44 Russian now). But this issue should become a another topic.

So, what kind of powder (BP/smokeless and brand) do you shoot and why? 

I shoot 5 grns of Universal Clays with a 200 grn bullet in the .44 Russian.

Shenandoah

[Trailrider]

Howdy, Pard,
I have NOT shot any of the replica Spencers, but I would think it safe to shoot REASONABLY LIGHT smokeless loads in the .44 Russian, .45 LC, and even the .56-50.  In point of fact, I used to shoot light smokeless loads in an original M1860 Spencer Carbine, though in deference to the nearly 150 year old metal, I have discontinued shooting it altogther!  The trick with any of them is to keep the loads no hotter than the original BP ballistics, and to use the slowest-burning powder that will ignite consistantly!  Universal is certainly a good choice.  BE SURE to ROLL CRIMP the case mouth, and use the right diameter expander plug to insure good bullet pull!

Ride careful, Pard!

[Shenandoah]

Anybody else have any input into why you use smokeless or BP?

[Appalachian Ed]

BP and BP only. Smokeless is a passing fad and has no place in Civil War era firearms.


My opinion.

[Fox Creek Kid]

There seems to be three types of Spencer shooters IMO.

1.  Those who are reenactors & who shoot tons of blanks, thereby necesitating cheap brass, i.e., pistol ctgs.
2.  This who shoot CAS & want a pistol ctg. These are usually smokeless shooters.
3.  The hardcore real BP shooters who almost always shoot a 56-60.

[.56/50 Iron]

Before you shoot smokeless in any blackpwder original or replica, you need to have a little information. It is not entirely correct to shoot smokeless even if you load smokeless "to the same pounds per square inch as the blackpowder gives you". Here's why. The smokeless powder has an entirely different way that it burns. While blackpowder ignites all at once, smokeless burns and creates pressure gradually as the bullet goes down the barrel. There is no way to accurately say you are using the "same pressure as a blackpowder load". You are comparing apples and oranges.
     Also, take a look at how a Spencer's breechblock  "locks up" when it is ready to fire. It does not "lock up"! The back end of the block is tight against the rear wall of the receiver---and it is held there by a spring pushing the block upward! I don't know about you, but this is a pretty "minimal" lock-up! Do yourself a favor. Never use smokelss in an antique blackpowder firearm. Never use smokess in a modern made black powder design. My opinion, you should do as your conscience tells you!
.56/50 Iron

[Shenandoah]

Well, we agree to disagree. The Colt peacemakers were originally BP, along with many other "cowboy" type weapons. The replicas do just fine with smokeless loads. Use the loading charts to ensure proper pressures and you'll do just fine.

[Drydock]

.56/50 Iron is right, but for all the wrong reasons.  He's got it backward.  BP has a burn rate SLOWER that the slowest Smokeless powder.  The peak is slightly sooner than with smokeless, (Full case, no volume for expansion) but MUCH LOWER, and begins a slow taper downward until the bullet leaves the muzzle.  As BP is a mechanical mixture, the burn rate is constant, unchanged by pressure or containment.  Think of still burning powder blown out of the muzzle of an BP gun you see.

Smokeless, however, is an organic compound.  Its burn rate rises exponentialy with pressure and temperature.  Thus in a pile uncontained it burns slow and erratic.  Contained in a cartridge, its rate is such that even relativly slow rifle powdes are comepletely consumed before the bullet leaves the cartridge.  Thus the peak is much higher, but of much shorter duration.  Average pressure might be the same as a BP cartidge, but the peak is much higher, and much more abrupt, with the pressure curve of much shorter duration.  Its a blow vs. the push of BP.  DON'T use smokeless in BP era guns. IMHO.  Modern made replicas are a comepletely different matter.

[Shenandoah]

I agree. The steel from over 100 years ago was not meant for smokeless loads/pressures. Modern replica's are a different matter.

Shenandoah

[Hell-Er High Water]

If you do a search at the top of the page on this forum for "Smokeless Loads For The 56-50" you will find quite a few tiopics covering the question.

I have posted on more than one of them and I noted that I have been using smokeless loads in my 56-50 reproduction Spencer for several years now with good results.

Check it out.  There is a lot of good info posted there.

HHW

[Herbert]

the armi sports 56-50 spencers have been prooved with smokless,proof marks on barell and action ,i use BP because that is what you are required to youse in compertitions i go in ,but i would hav no wories yousing the right smokless load in a new spencer,allthough i wont youse it in my original carbine,it would probly be safe but my carbine is just to preshes to me ,although TB loads seem even more mild than BP

[Kropatchek]

I have an original 56-50 Spencer ,so the choise is easy BLACK POWDER ONLY
Greetz
Kro

[Trailrider]

Before you shoot smokeless in any blackpwder original or replica, you need to have a little information. It is not entirely correct to shoot smokeless even if you load smokeless "to the same pounds per square inch as the blackpowder gives you". Here's why. The smokeless powder has an entirely different way that it burns. While blackpowder ignites all at once, smokeless burns and creates pressure gradually as the bullet goes down the barrel. There is no way to accurately say you are using the "same pressure as a blackpowder load". You are comparing apples and oranges.
     Also, take a look at how a Spencer's breechblock  "locks up" when it is ready to fire. It does not "lock up"! The back end of the block is tight against the rear wall of the receiver---and it is held there by a spring pushing the block upward! I don't know about you, but this is a pretty "minimal" lock-up! Do yourself a favor. Never use smokelss in an antique blackpowder firearm. Never use smokess in a modern made black powder design. My opinion, you should do as your conscience tells you!
.56/50 Iron

You are correct when you say that smokeless powder has much different burning characteristics than black powder.  And I would say that the average shooter has no way to determine what the absolute peak pressure of a smokeless load is, nor what pressures you are getting with black powder.  IF you had an Oehler M43 Personal Ballistics Lab, and IF you cemented a strain gage (requiring removing all bluing in the place where the strain gage is mounted...maybe on the bottom of the barrel under the forearm...) to the barrel, you CAN get relative pressure-time curves generated.  I have the equipment, but currently don't have the time to run the testing.  I have run tests on .45-70 rifles, and have generated pressure-time curves with smokeless powders such as IMR3031 and IMR4198 that pretty well matched those of BP and BP substitutes (NOT ALL of the ones currently available).  So I would not catagorically eliminate smokeless from consideration for shooting MODERN REPLICAS, which have been proofed for smokeless by the manufacturers.  I DEFINITELY WOULD NO LONGER SHOOT SMOKELESS IN ORIGINAL GUNS OF THE SPENCER VINTAGE due to their age, and, as I stated before, would probably obtain a replica in .56-50, if I wanted to shoot a Spencer.

BTW, I must respectfully disagree with your statement about the lockup of the Spencer!  The breechblock is NOT locked by the spring holding it into battery.  The rear of the breechblock bearing against the shoulder in the receiver is the same type that is used in a number of rifles, including the Savage 99.  The only thing the spring does is prevent the block from falling down out of battery until the backthrust from the cartridge is transmitted to the receiver.