1st Model Dragoon

Wilfred Aubrey · September 24, 2008, 07:47:12 AM

I have a pair of Uberti 1st. Model Dragoons coming this Friday. javascript:void(0);
Grin What size caps might work best 10's or 11's

?, and how many grains of black powder for a normal load I don't need anything too hot. Thanks

Alabama · September 24, 2008, 08:00:06 AM

Whichever fits better !

Enjoy your cool guns , they are awsome !!!!!

Alabama

Justician · September 24, 2008, 11:08:04 AM

I was looking at my 1st model dragoon last night. I noticed that I had to take the wedge screw all the way out to remove the wedge. Then I had difficulty with my butterfingers trying to put the screw back in.

Can this be replaced with a screw that is flat on one side (like on open tops) so that it only has to be turned over to remove the wedge?

Fingers McGee · September 24, 2008, 11:24:15 AM

Quote from: Wilfred Aubrey on September 24, 2008, 07:47:12 AM
I have a pair of Uberti 1st. Model Dragoons coming this Friday. javascript:void(0);
Grin What size caps might work best 10's or 11's ?, and how many grains of black powder for a normal load I don't need anything too hot. Thanks

Like Alabama said 'Whatever fits better!'. Buy a tin of one of them & see how they work. My experience with stock Uberti C&Bs is that #10 Remingtons work pretty good. If you're going to use them for competition, changing the nipples to Tresos will enhance reliability. As to a beginning load, something in the 25 to 30 grain neighborhood would be about middle ground. If it were me - I'd start with about a 20 grain fffg load and work my way up 5 grains at a time to see what works and feels best.

Quote from: Justician on September 24, 2008, 11:08:04 AM
I was looking at my 1st model dragoon last night. I noticed that I had to take the wedge screw all the way out to remove the wedge. Then I had difficulty with my butterfingers trying to put the screw back in.

Can this be replaced with a screw that is flat on one side (like on open tops) so that it only has to be turned over to remove the wedge?

You could do that; but I've found that a magnetic tipped screwdriver compensates for my fat fingers when replacing the wedge screw on my Navies.

Justician · September 24, 2008, 12:23:57 PM

Thanks Fingers. I was just looking at your collection under the "guns of the darksiders" thread. I still love those 2nd generation 61s.

Deadguy · September 24, 2008, 12:41:30 PM

I have a Dragoon that I shoot in CAS matches. I would recommend at least 35 grains of powder (I use 40), otherwise you'll have a big empty space between the ball and the powder, which is bad news by general consensus. I use 40 grains of FFF pushing a lubricated wad and a 200 grain Lee REAL. Shoots accurately without being too wild, and hits the targets hard for easier scoring for the spotters.

Fingers McGee · September 24, 2008, 02:36:09 PM

Quote from: Deadguy on September 24, 2008, 12:41:30 PM
I have a Dragoon that I shoot in CAS matches. I would recommend at least 35 grains of powder (I use 40), otherwise you'll have a big empty space between the ball and the powder, which is bad news by general consensus. I use 40 grains of FFF pushing a lubricated wad and a 200 grain Lee REAL. Shoots accurately without being too wild, and hits the targets hard for easier scoring for the spotters.

Thanks Deadguy for keeping me straight - I should have added to use wad/filler to ensure the powder you use is compressed with the smaller charges. My experience with a Uberti 3rd model dragoon laoded with 30 grains of fffg, 9 or 10 grains of cream of wheat, lubed wad and .454 roundball, ended up being the most accurate load for paper punching.

hellgate · September 24, 2008, 03:26:38 PM

I shoot the same load in my 3rd Mod Dragoon as I do in the Walkers: 44grs FFg+lube wad+.454 ball+ grease+#10 Remington cap.

Steel Horse Bailey · September 25, 2008, 03:44:28 AM

Your cap size will depend. My Colt stock cones (nipples) need a #12 size cap. When I replaced the stock ones with TRESO nipples, it went to #11s. However, Only the Walker and Dragoon TRESOs use #11s - all the other TRESOs I've heard about are smaller and use #10s.

If you don't have around 35 grs. of powder or powder and spacers MINIMUM, the rammer won't compress the powder and ball down properly. MY gun shoots 42-45 grs. best and most accurately. The Dragoon was designed for a max charge of 50 grs., while the Walkers were designed for a max of 60 grs.

My most FUN load was 15 grs. of loose 3F powder poured in first, then a 30 gr. Pyrodex pellet seated on top, then a greased wad, then the ball, then grease ON TOP of the ball. Remington #11 cap to ignite it. Not only did it shoot REALLY powerfully, there was practically NO BP residue after 15 loads - just a little dust-like powder residue that lined the barrel. (not to mention that I was able to put all 15 shots in the black at 25 ft. (NRA 50 ft. pistol target - I think was the target. The black was labeled with a 10 as well as an X ring and the whole black was about 3 or so inches diameter.)

Alabama · September 25, 2008, 03:59:18 AM

Just a side note on the Walker , but I am pretty sure loads back then were to be made up with 2FF , not 3FFF .
A 60 grain Load of 3FFF is a MIGHTY LOAD !!!!
Just remember just how much pressure that is if your into being a Warthog . 2FF is much safer to be doing that to a Walker and still packs a wallop , just less pressure, slower burn , it is the right thing to do , " LIKE OATMEAL "

...............

Alabama

Troublesome River · September 25, 2008, 11:56:30 AM

Howdy all,
I think you're right, Alabama. I remember reading awhile back (so far back I can't remember the books name) that the charge that Colt recommended for the Walker and Dragoons was a maximum of 50 grains for the Walker and 40 grains for the Dragoons (2f or 3f wasn't specified). The rest of the room in the cylinder was to add strength due to the steel of the time. It was also said that Colt wrote this because shooters were loading the cylinders too full causing them to explode.-Troublesome

P.S. If I'm ramblig too much forgive me, but I'm making arrangements for my 88-year-old grandma who passed away last night-T.R.

Paladin UK · September 25, 2008, 01:00:31 PM

TR...

Prayers up fer you `n` yer family pard

Paladin (

) UK

Capt. Augustus · September 25, 2008, 02:27:10 PM

On Cap & Ball pistols of the Colt type, the screw over the wedge does not have to be removed.

On the Walker a constant load of 60 grains of 3f will stretch the wedge slot in the barrel, which does away with head space and you can't fire the caps.

Also, on models with oval bolt holes in the cylinders, the holes will preen on the stop edge if you speed cock the pistol using two hands. This results in lose of timing, another no fun experience.

Alabama · September 25, 2008, 03:14:31 PM

Troublesome River ,
you aint ramblin , and you got just cause for not thinking nor acting clear anyway .
Good luck to you and to her on her Journey to the other side . Just try to remember the good times if you had them with her and you will most likely be meetin up agian someday with her too .
Good luck with your grief and God bless you .

Alabama

Steel Horse Bailey · September 25, 2008, 08:11:02 PM

Quote from: Troublesome River on September 25, 2008, 11:56:30 AM
Howdy all,
I think you're right, Alabama. I remember reading awhile back (so far back I can't remember the books name) that the charge that Colt recommended for the Walker and Dragoons was a maximum of 50 grains for the Walker and 40 grains for the Dragoons (2f or 3f wasn't specified). The rest of the room in the cylinder was to add strength due to the steel of the time. It was also said that Colt wrote this because shooters were loading the cylinders too full causing them to explode.-Troublesome

P.S. If I'm ramblig too much forgive me, but I'm making arrangements for my 88-year-old grandma who passed away last night-T.R.

The ORIGINAL Colt load for the Walker was 60 grs. In those iron cylinders of the time, quite a few blew. So, they updated their recommended MAX load down to 50. The Dragoon MAX load was always 50, and they were still using iron for the cylinders - which carried on for quite a while - at least into or 'thru the 1860 Army. They shortened the cylinder when they made the Dragoons so 60 grs. wouldn't fit. But - 50 it was. Until they decided to hedge their bets a bit.

Using a 30 gr. Pyrodex pellet and loose 3f, I could get 60 grs. into my 1st Mod. Dragoon ... but I won't.

Alabama, you're pretty well on about the granulation. MOST (un)Civil War loads were coarser granulation than our current 3f size, but it was generally a bit finer than our 2F. Sort of a 2 1/2F. Add to that the idea that some of the better sporting powders of the day were reportedly more "energetic" (read: more powerful) and 60 grs. or even 50 grs. becomes pretty stout. Of course, with the Dragoons at 4.1 lbs. and the Walkers over 4.5 lbs. they soaked up some of that recoil impulse. Don't forget: those guns were designed to replace rifles for mounted troops!

As the good Captain A mentioned, the screw shouldn't HAVE to be removed to remove the wedge, but mine does... the spring on my Colt (early 2nd Gen.1st Model Dragoon) wedge is a bit short which causes the tip to barely remain in the slot, so I have to remove it. It's a STOUT spring and won't compress (without mechanical help) enough, so out comes the screw. Otherwise, the spring catches on the lip of the screw. My (Uberti/Iver Johnson) 1860 Army, on the other hand, works right and can be removed sometimes by thumb pressure, yet it locks up tight as a drum.

As he also mentioned, you shouldn't try to "speed cock" these old (style) guns - I don't do it to ANY of my C&B guns, no matter what shape the bolt holes are. No need to! By the time the smoke clears, you've had plenty of time for a leisurely one-handed (or 2) operation.