Measuring Pyrodex

[Pappy Myles]

OK Pards,

Here's my situation. I've read several threads on the pros and cons on using pryodex.  I have several pounds of the stuff left over from a scout shoot with muzzle loaders.  And I am planning on experimenting with the Dark Arts  in my 45 colt (om ruger vaquero)

My quandry.  I'm not sure what is the more accurate method of measuring.   I have a set of Lee dippers, and old brass measure for the muzzle loader, and an electronic scale.   When I loose fill the cartridge with pyrodex (to the top) and then pour the powder on the scale, I get a reading weight of 28.8 grains.    When I take that same powder and fill the muzzle loader measure, it indicates a volumn of around 44 grains.  and the 2.8 cc dipper from the lee kit will just about fill the cartridge. (WW cases)

When you read the original load of a 45 colt, its something like 40 grains of powder.    How does one calibrate?   I prefer to use the lee dippers, though I do have several different style of powder measures and scales at my disposal for my progressive press.

I would like to get somewhere around 30 to 35 grains of pyrodex loaded.  (using lymans 250 rnfp bullet) and not have to guess at compression/weight/volumn........

Any suggestions?

[Noz]

You have two ways to go.
Old fashioned way is to fill case until the seated bullet compresses the load 1/16-1/8 inch. Dump that powder out and either choose a dipper or make one that gives you that amount of powder and go with that.
Dump 30-35 grains of pyrodex in case and fill the case with enough grits or corn meal to allow for the above compression. Choose dipper or make dipper for the corn meal. One dipper for powder and one dipper for corn meal.
I don't like to be around corn meal shooters if the wind is blowing toward me. Seems to me that I get a lot of floating debris in my eyes from it.

[Arcey]

For the game, grains by weight or volume doesn't matter. Black or Pyrodex. Just get 'nuff in 'em for proper compression. How one measures it for a drop becomes a personal choice.

As humid as it is here I prefer grits to corn meal. 3f grits, of course. Corn meal tends to get lumpy 'n difficult to deal with at the bench.

[Flint]

Pyrodex by volume is the same as BP.  It weighs less, see the Hogdon website.  A modern solid head 45 Cplt case won't hold a 40 gr. charge, that was the loading for a balloon head case.  30 or max 35 gr works, by volume, load for a bit of compression.

Pyrodex seems to be more corrosive than BP, so clean the gun as soon as possible.

[w44wcf]

Pappy,
Take a fired case and run your expander die into the case neck to remove the remaining crimp.  Your bullet should then be a slip fit into the case.  Charge the case with 25.0 grs. BY WEIGHT of Pyrodex. Place the bullet into the case and push it down on top of the powder by hand.   Measure the o.a.l. of the cartridge.  Then adjust the weight of Pyrodex so that your o.a.l. will be 1/16 to 1/8(MAX) over your finished cartridge dimension.  That will give you that amount of compression when you load your cartridges.

w44wcf

[Smokin Gun]

Charge the case with 25.0 grs. BY WEIGHT of Pyrodex. Place the bullet into the case and push it down on top of the powder by hand.   Measure the o.a.l. of the cartridge.  Then adjust the weight of Pyrodex so that your o.a.l. will be 1/16 to 1/8(MAX) over your finished cartridge dimension.  That will give you that amount of compression when you load your cartridges.

I spose you can do all that if ya wanna but if you weigh Pyrodex you ain't weighin' it per grains...cause Black powder at a thrown charge of 35gr by Volume will weigh 35gr, but Pyrodex, 777 and the like are lighter and if you weigh it with a scale you'll be puttin' more than you you can hold. I don't think they carried them electronic or Triple Beam scales around on Horseback and I know they din't have 777 or Pyrodex. But tried and true if you measure like it should be done by volume you do jus' fine.
My cartridge load for a .45 Long Colt is W-W case with 35gr(by volume) of Goex fffg Black Powder and a 255gr soft lead flat point Boolit.
And that's compressed enough and a pretty stout load when fired from a Colt Sig. 1st Model Dragoon Revolver. Use the By Volume method it's all ya need. And it's how most shooters and Old Coots I know do it and have done it for a couple hundred years and a few.

Hope that helps,

SG

[w44wcf]

Smokin Gun,

Well.....it's like this......Not all measures will drop the same volume   I have 3 different measures (Lyman 55, B&M, TC) and at the 40 gr. setting they drop different volumes...all told a  variance of 7%!!  Soooo...the correct volume for the .45 Colt, if one wanted to duplicate the early factory loadings be that which gives a compression rate of .20" if using b.p. and 1/8" maximum when using Pyrodex.  The reason that I said 25 grs. of Pyrodex by weight is that, based on my experience with Pyrodex in the .45 Colt, will be close to the correct volume of Pyrodex.

w44wcf

[Ranch 13]

 Hogdons used to put in their freebe handout load books a chart that gave the actual weight of Pyrodex to black comparison. I don't remember all the details, and can look it up for you if you like, but as an example 57 grs of RS was stated to be the equivilant of 70 grs 2f black.
Take one of your fired cases and pour the pyrodex in until  the bullet and wad will compress the powder charge about 1/10th of an inch. That should be a good place to start. I haven't messed with the stuff since about 1980, but back then we had to compress the snot out of it,in cartridges, to get it to shoot anywhere near what bp loads would do.
One other thing you can do is get a good adjustable blackpowder measure such as the ones folks that shoot real muzzleloader use. Set it to 35 or 40 grs and pour your pyrodex.

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

Pyrodex was originally formulated to have the same chemical energy as a similar volume of Black Power. But it weighs less, hence your confusion.

According to their web site, Pyrodex should be compressed about 1/16"-1/8", which is the same for Black Powder with most loads.

http://www.hodgdon.com/loading.html

Here is a very simple method for determining the correct amount of powder for any given amount of compression:

http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,18257.0.html

[Trailrider]

Howdy, Pards,

When Pyrodex first was introduced, they said that you could use 80 percent by WEIGHT of the black powder WEIGHT.  In other words, with a .45-70, 70 x .8 = 56 grains of Pyrodex R or P (I think this also applied to RS).  This worked quite well for me.  Later, after Hodgdon's took over production, after the death of Ron Pawlak (inventor of Pyrodex), the number was reduced to 75 percent, by WEIGHT.  The volumetric equivalent allowed you get enough Pyrodex into the case to fill it, plus some compression.  As modern brass has less case capacity than the old balloon head cases, the denser Pyrodex would allow original BP velocities with the modern brass.

But NOWADAYS, Hodgdons states you should use volumetric ONLY, so I would follow their directions.

I quit using Pyrodex as it requires just as much cleanup as BP, and I stay mainly with smokeless powders for most of my reloads.  Pyrodex and the other BP substitutes are generally safer to store than BP, so there can be an advantage there.

Ride careful, Pards!

[Noz]

I use a similar measurement to Driftwood but it may be a bit simpler. I set the bullet to be used on a level surface. I set a 32 mag or 38 special case beside the bullet. Mark the case with a "Sharpie" at the crimp groove on the bullet. Move down 1/8" and make another mark. Fill your case with BP until, when the marked case is dropped on top of the powder the second or lower line is visible. This will give you the 1/8" compression when the bullet is seated.

[Ranch 13]

Hodgdons data for the 45 colt and 250 gr bullets lists 20-25 grs (by actual weight)

[Two Rivers Marshal]

Still fairly new to the dark arts, but here's what i found works for me.

Take a piece of brass, lay it down with the intended bullet next to it.  Line up the crimping groove with the top of the brass and mark a line at the bottom of the bullet, mark another line about 1/16" above it (towards the top of the case).  Put the brass in my case trimmer and cut it down to the top line. This becomes my dipper and will fill my case so there is about 1/16 of an inch compression.  Use a marker or something if you use different bullets as the length will vary a bit. Solder a piece of a coat hanger or wire to the cut down case, and ya have your own dipper complete with handle.

I tried measuring/weighing charges and was pretty well confused, but with the help of the folks here, my loads are makin plenty of smoke and I still get folks asking what im a shootin.  Just smile and tell em a full case of fun. 

TRM

[Pappy Myles]

Thanks for all the suggestions.  Great Info.

Heres what I've done.  I've marked the case as recommended, filled the case to the index mark and weighed it.   Turned out a little over 27 grains.    I do have an RCBS blackpowder thrower and set the volumn to throw the same amount that was weighed.   Tweked it a tad for consistancy.  And recorded the marking on the thrower.   Sooooo   Im set.

Thanks again