Smokeless or black powder?

[Deadeye Don]

Which one would have been used during the Spanish American War for the Colt 38 DA revolvers?

[Books OToole]

According to Richard Harding Davis, a fellow correspondent named Edward Marshall "found smokeless cartridges" for his revolver.

alas we don't know what kind of pistol Marshall had.

Books

[Deadeye Don]

Thanks Books.  Actually,  I just found this article on line which appears to answer my question.

http://www.handgunsmag.com/featured_handguns/hg_coltrev_200803/

[Charlie Bowdre]

DD
Just read the article you mention . Interesting piece of writing. Thanks for posting , always nice to see these tidbits of information.

Dutchy

[St. George]

By the time of the Spanish-American War, Smokeless was issued, but prior to that, it was supplied in Black Powder.

Never very powerful, nor as versatile as the later .38 Special - it's woeful lack of stopping power and accuracy was the primary reason for the adoption of the .45 ACP

Be certain you load for .38 Long Colt and be aware that some of those old Colt DA's will chamber a .38 Special.

Don't fire those in your old Colt.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[Deadeye Don]

Thanks for the warning St. George.  I did know not to attempt to use 38 special in the revolver even though it does chamber that round just fine.  I already have 38 colt ammo in both smokeless and black powder.  I just didnt know which was actually used in the military.  Now I know!!   An interesting fact about the 38 DA colt is that it replaced the Colt SAA chambered for 45colt/schofield and actually lasted as the primary issued weapon of the navy and army for about 20 years until being replaced as you said by the 45 ACP round.  This was even though there was some evidence that the 38 colt was underpowered especially in the conflict in the Phillipines with the Moro.  I have an 1894 model which made improvements over the 1889 and 1892 versions by not allowing the gun to be fired unless fully closed and locked.  Comparing the 45 colt and even the 45 acp rounds next to a 38 colt it is shocking to see the size difference.  The lanyard swivel on the gun was actually added in about 1902 I believe when the guns were involved in an arsenal overhaul and refurbishment  to match the 1901 revolvers being produced at the time. 
I plan to try out my gun this weekend.  The revolver is really tight and in great shape with the orginal grips.  The bore looks pristine.  I understand that alot of these revolvers survived in great shape as they were not used very much even though they were issued.  During the Spanish American war the cavalry became infantry and relied on their Krags.  Many soldiers left thier 38 colts behind in Tampa before embarking to Cuba. 

And yes I have been doing alot of reading lately.  I find this stuff fascinating.    I am now on the lookout for an original period holster and 1896 Mills belt.  Regards.  Deadeye.

[St. George]

A lot of them are in great shape today because they were refinished by Uncle Sam.

Actually, the Armory didn't do it, the job was sub-contracted out to Remington.

The original finish was of commercial quality - but that didn't last long in the tropics.

If you do your best to replicate the original load - you'll get your best accuracy.

The revolvers most commonly seen in period photos taken in Cuba and the Philippines are 5 1/2" barrelled Single Action Colts - the 'Artillery Models' that were placed back into Service after refurbishing and fitted with new barrels.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[Deadeye Don]

I think I had read that commanders had the choice to use refurbished colt SAA or the newer issued Colt DA in 38 cal.   The issues regarding the 'underpowered" Colt 38s  started even during the trial period and gained momentum in the years to follow.  Still, in the militarys infinite wisdom they stayed with the 38 DA for 20 years or so.  I have a feeling that the people actually making the decisions regarding using the 38 or something more powerful for the "official" side arm were NOT the ones that actually had to use it in combat.   I am sure the gun I have was refinished at the time the lanyard swivel was put on in about 1902.

I will be using commercially available rounds.  I think I got these from ammo direct.

Regards.  Deadeye.

[piebiter]

Very interesting topic. 

[Pitspitr]

The issues regarding the 'underpowered" Colt 38s  started even during the trial period and gained momentum in the years to follow.  Still, in the militarys infinite wisdom they stayed with the 38 DA for 20 years or so.  I have a feeling that the people actually making the decisions regarding using the 38 or something more powerful for the "official" side arm were NOT the ones that actually had to use it in combat. 

Does this topic remind any one of the 9mm Beretta?

[St. George]

The .38 Long Colt was looked at as being 'modern' at a time when that was important in the armies of the world.

It 'looked good on paper' - especially since the Indian Wars had in essence come to a close, and stepping into a new era was appealing to all.

Ordnance wasn't all that interested in reports from the users - 'until' the failures were being reported in greater numbers, and they realized that something needed to be done - hence, the Army Trials that would lead to the adoption of the M1911.

Britain did much the same, when she brought out the little .38/200 in favor of the older, established .455, after WWI.

'On paper' - the soft lead round had the same stopping power, but was far lighter and small enough for all hands, and to a degree, that little round is a decent stopper in original configuration.

The problem arose when the round needed to be a full-jacket, and when that happened - there went the stopping power.

The M9 was the end result of the JSSAP requirements to find a suitable replacement for a wide variety if handguns then in Service.

In many cases, there were no spare parts left in the inventory for proper repair and maintenance, and the vast numbers of M1911A1's were rapidly aging - the last ones being built in 1945.

That need - coupled with a requirement for STANAG compliance in most small arms ammunition (for commonality in theater) - along with the need to support NATO allies with procurement - led to the eventual adoption of a very good Service Pistol.

There's more to this tale - but this 'is' an Old West forum, after all.

I will mention that those soldiers bitching about the fact that 'they' wish for the old .45 have likely never shot one.

The M9's were in wide issue by 1988, and many of them have never shot those since AIT, either - because their duty MOS and the TO&E doesn't provide them with one.

Remember - though presenting a romantically heroic image - no soldier really intends to go mano-a-mano on the modern battlefield with a handgun - not when there are so many other weapons readily available in the inventory, and since the modern battlefield always has a lot of stuff lying around whose original owners no longer have a need for it.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!