Shootin' DDs new 500gr MK III

[john boy]

I've got a cross hair/circle insert that I really like a lot!

Cuts - -sounds like the cat's meow ... I am a bulls eye shooter.  Found the inserts on BAC - will order.  Thanks!

I was using the cross hair when shooting at Homer.  He is 48 x 82" and it was ideal for a wide body silhouette

FYI All - I loaded 39 MK-III rounds today:  63.5gr Swiss 1.5 with a 0.030 fiber wad and COAL at 2.90 this time.  The ogive cams nicely into the leading bore with a HiWall.  Will be shooting em at 600yds this time

When I get back home and get some more SN, gonna cast a 100 or so at 1:20 this time

[john boy]

 ... just for fun tonight, I cast 20 Lyman #2 MK-III bullets:
Weight - 453gr
Base Diameter - 457

[john boy]

Took 2 recipes to the range today for 200 - 300 - 600yd testing:
Uberti HiWall
MK-III 1:10 (477gr)
R - P Cases
CCI 200 Primers
63.5gr Swiss 1.5
0.030 Fiber Wad
COAL 2.90
Lt Crimp to remove bell

MK-III 1:30 (487gr) unsized
R-P Chamfered 22 1/2 degree
Newspaper wad over primer hole
65gr CTG (socked)
0.0625 Dry Felt Wad
Finger Seated
Light Crimp
COAL 2.90

200yds (3 shot strings)
63.5gr Swiss Recipe
String 1 ... 1 1/2 x 1 1/4"
String 2 ... 3 1/2 x 3 3/4"

65gr CTG Recipe
3 2/4 x 2 1/8"

300yds (3 shot strings)
63.5gr Swiss Recipe
10 x 7 3/4"

65gr CTG Recipe
13 1/4 x 7 3/4"

600yds (3 shot strings)
Forty rounds (20 from each recipe)
Of the 40 rounds, only 11 bullets were on paper (Maintenance target: (7 - X).  I would adjust elevation and windage - shoot a 3 shot strings and the groups were all over the canvas.  The weird thing is, I had one group on paper that was 4 1/8 x 8 1/8" plus one group on the canvas that was 6 x 5 1/2 .... but - the remaining group POI's was were all over the canvas.  I could not hold a consistent group - aka shotgun groups.  Example: 2 holes in the canvas about the 5 ring and the 3rd was a 10

I shot the 600yds with the HiWall and the Pedersoli Sharps - both rifles couldn't produce a decent group

Shooting conditions were perfect: 70's - humid - cloud cover and wind less than 10mph

[Ranch 13]

What ever was going on causing that vertical stringing, my guess is by 700 yds they'ld a been hitting sideways , if you could of kept enough of em on paper to find.
Wondering if getting the diameter up to .459 and driving them a little harder would help anything
Might try drop tubing 75 grs of cartridge in ww cases and see if that doesn't help some.

[john boy]

Ranch:  The 1:10's were 459 and the 1:30's were 457.  And every hole on the 600yd target showed no sign of any key holing.
As for verticle strings - there were none.  Measurements are length x width.

Honestly, I'm perplexed.  If they shot a t 500 then there should have been predictable groups at 600.

Options:
1.  I don't believe going softer than 1:30 will produce better results.  So, next batch - harder than 1:10 in the Bhn 14 - 15 range
2.  Powder charge:  Next will be 68 - 70.  But if you scroll back to the 100yd target - the larger powder charges produced the larger groups.
3.  Primers:  Will use some Fed 215M and CCI Br-2's to see if that makes any difference.
4.  Wads:  ?.  Thicker or different ones?
5.  Crimp below the driving band?  No crimp and leave the bell as a means to guide the bullet into the leading bore?
6.  COAL:  Next batch are going to be jumpers - about 0.002 to 0.005

AND ... need more shooters of the bullet at 500+ to start fine tuning the loading data.  I was impressed with Cuts groups at 200 and 300.  The POI's at 500 showed promise ... but if it is going to be a 1000yd bullet - gotta get more testing.

Also, I haven't done it yet but have to determine the balance point of the bullet to determine it's nose - base ratio.

[Ranch 13]

John I've actually seen bullets thru the binoculars ( I prefer 20 or 30 x bino to spotter scope) when they start to loose stability, and it looks like they're riding the hand rail on a circular staircase.I round might come in 20 yds short the next one elevation great but 10 ft right or left, etc.... Loads that'll shoot good at point x can just go plumb to hedoublel the next 50-100 yds. Especially if the bullet is slowing down enough that even a slight breeze can kick the crap out of it.
What you've got here is another example of how nice tight 100 yd groups are fun, but don't mean doosquat when it comes to serious bpcr competition.
If I were going to repeat your test, I'ld scrap the news print, just use a .060 fiber wad under the bullet.I'ld also jump the powder up to see if more velocity would keep things a bit better on track. I also think I'ld seat those just off the lands, and as usual just enough crimp to take the flare out. I'ld also load 10 of each bullet with some 3f, just leave the powder thrower set for the swiss or cartridge and fill the hopper with 3f and go.
What might really help would be if a couple of those bullets could be recovered from the 500 yd berm. They shouldn't be terribly tore up, and it would be alot easier to read the tracks on the base.
I'm also curios as to the leading , was there any in the throat. Something else that could be happening is maybe just flat out to much lube, wiping between shots unless its a real hot dry day migh be the answer, as the thing could be lube stripping a bit (aka land jumping due to excessive lube, my badger barrel is pretty picky about that)

That bullet looks like it should have some possibles there, but it's probably going to take a half a case of powder to find the load that'll take it all the way to the 1k line.

[boothill bones]

Just a WOW ,,

DD is one of the greatest I have had the honor of dealing with.
To start a project like making even a bullet that can fly straighter, longer and better than anything else takes talent. But then to seei the project thru all the way to production is a skill, a dedication  and a genius many of us lack.

will be ordering one soon

bones

[Dick Dastardly]

The back forty of my ranch ends up on wetlands.  It rained pitchforks and hammer handles today.  Tornado warnings abounded.  Still, I managed to get my purloined freezer carton off to the south 800 yards.  I put some pretty encouraging holes in it.  Three to get on "carton" and Ten for effect.  The end result was a group I could cover with a 8" pie plate.  The pie plate wasn't near the 10 ring however.

This ain't scientific and the shooting was hurried, but I think I'm safe saying that she'll fly 1000 yards and end up front first.  Just where the wind blows is always a question and a challenge.

My bullets leave at around 1360 fps.  I'm shootn' an original Remington Rolling Block rifle that's been rebuilt with a Green Mountain barrel.  Jerry Wakkinen, of the only Waunakee in the world, built the gun from an original Spanish wreck.  He did good.

I truly do need a glass sight to shoot better.  I'm thinkn' of a Leatherwood with a good mount.  Pretty much, my experience has always been, if I kin see it, I kin shoot it.  The glass sight will bring them critters closer so I kin kill 'em.

DD-DLoS

[john boy]

Dick - what loading data were you shooting.  If it flys for you to 800 then there is no reason why I can't get results at 600

[Dick Dastardly]

Howdy John Boy,

My gun likes .458 lube/sized bullets.  I use PL-II, but any good lube will do as well.  I cast 'em about 20:1.  The brass is once fired Winchester.  Not resized and only belled enough that the bullet can be thumb seated.  CCI-300 Large Pistol primer.  The powder charge is 7% SR4759 (5 grains) under a compressed 65 grain charge of FFFg LIDU.  I compress with a Circle Fly .460 diameter fiber wad using my 1/2 ton arbor press.  My graph says I'm averaging 1360fps with a very narrow SD.  The load is quite frisky and I wear a PAST shoulder pad when I shoot 'em.

The powder charge does not "spring" back up.

The bullets could be crimped on the top driving band just past the top lube grove if they were to be carried for hunting.  For target work I only close the flare enough that the cartridge self centers in the bore.  If I pull a loaded target round back out of the rifle I have to tap the bullet back a mite before it comes out.  The bullet has started engraving the rifling.  I've shot 'em after pulling and it doesn't seem to hurt the accuracy.  For hunting loads this would be unacceptable, thus the crimp.

We have a lake to the south now.  The marsh went under about Five feet of water.  So, I'll have to wait to do any more shooting.  Of course, I could put a target on a raft and play Navy Gunner. . .

Hope this helps.

DD-DLoS

[john boy]

Thanks Dick.  When I get back from vacation, will have to try your recipe with a smokless after burner and a straight large charge of straight black

Sure would like to see more folks flying the bullet past 500.  Would be good to fine tune recipes

[Ranch 13]

Thanks Dick.  When I get back from vacation, will have to try your recipe with a smokless after burner and a straight large charge of straight black

Sure would like to see more folks flying the bullet past 500.  Would be good to fine tune recipes

Send me some .459 and 20 or 16-1. I'ld give em a try.Got the creedmore papers set at 5 and 800 as we speak. Won't take but a couple more steel posts and a pallet to put up the 1000. There's a club shoot at Alliance in the middle of July if I could make something look good here at the house, would take a go of em to the Hoffland for some severe range testing.

[Col. Cornelius Gilliam]

The powder charge is 7% SR4759 (5 grains) under a compressed 65 grain charge of FFFg LIDU.  I compress with a Circle Fly .460 diameter fiber wad using my 1/2 ton arbor press.  My graph says I'm averaging 1360fps with a very narrow SD.  The load is quite frisky and I wear a PAST shoulder pad when I shoot 'em.

I'm confused.  Why would you use a duplex load with a "Big Lube" bullet?

In long range loads, duplex loads typically increase the velocity standard deviation, but decrease fouling.  Proper loading techniques also reduce fouling with standard, all blackpowder loads.  Duplex loads and standard 45-70 & 45-90 bullet designs shoot great w/o the need for the additional lube.  There are also quite a few standard designs that have a very high ballistic coefficient and therefore less wind drift.

If higher velocity is required for 1,000 yrds to combat wind drift, the black powder solution is to use a longer case (45-90) and more black power, or seat the bullet out farther depending on throating.

I thought the big lube design was to combat fouling for rapid shooting.  If duplexing is required to get accuracy, I don't see the need to use the big lube design with its lower ballistic coefficient.

I personally don't load any duplex loads myself.  I use standard bullet designs and all black powder with exceptional 500 to 1,000 yard accuracy.  Lately, I'm trying out a custom New Postell design from Brooks based on the Lyman design (http://www.brooksmoulds.com/bullets.html).  It's proving to be very accurate with 100% BP.

In addition, several types of long range BP shoots do not allow duplexing anyway.

[Dick Dastardly]

Howdy Col.

And, thanks.  The only reason for duplexing on my part is to keep from running out of ladder.  My rear sight (Lee Shaver Long Range) uses all the ladder available at 1000 yards.  It's not a windage issue.  I probably could spend a lot of money on a taller sight but I'm getting great results with my duplex loads.  For what it's worth, the Big Lube™ system works great.  I can shoot out to 900 yards with a compressed charge of 70 grains of Holy Black and the gun doesn't build fouling.

I do use a blow tube to compare groups and I also wipe between shots when doing direct group comparison.  I've found that both blow tubing and bore wiping give little improvement.

Since this design is so new, there is much to be learned about the best way to load and shoot it.

[john boy]

Since this design is so new, there is much to be learned about the best way to load and shoot it.

Dick - How True!  And to add to the learning experience, here's what I have done:

Loaded 4 Recipes:
Constants for all the recipes:
... R-P cases - weight sorted within 2.5grs
... All cases trimmed lengthen to 2.08
... All cases annealed
... All cases have the primer hole drilled out to 092 (was the hole diameter used at the Three Mile Sandy Hook Shoot)
... All cases neck chamfered with a 22 1/2 degree reamer
... All cases primed with a CCI Br-2 primer
... All cases have a 030 LDPE over powder wad
... All bullets lubed with the first grease groove left empty - as cast.  Why?  These bullets are really bore riding bullets (ogive base at driving band is 451).  Accordingly, they are going to have a fouling scrapper with the 1st groove empty.  When shot, the bore will be patch wiped with a 50:50 mix of Prestone Anti-Freeze and water
... All bullets slip fitted with 0.005 neck tension (no crimp)
... All reloads are COAL of 2.92 to fit my Sharps.  A light caming using a bullet seater will put the driving band up against the leading bore cuts.  With the slip seating of the bullet and the cartridge seating of the round - this will emulate a breach seated round used in yester years with accuracy (hopefully!)

Variables of the 4 Recipes:
#1 - 3.5gr Unique and 66.5gr Swiss 1.5.  Compression of 0.35 was needed to obtain the COAL using 70gr equivalent.
#2 - 70gr Swiss 1.5.  Compression of 0.85 was needed to obtain the COAL using 70gr.  Actually, this is too much compression for Swiss
#3 - 70gr Pinnacle FFg
#4 - 59.5gr vol (41.5gr by wt) Hodgdon H777 FFg
All powder charges used are 70gr or 70gr equivalents

The recipes will be shot when I return from vacation in July at 600yds.

Now, Grasshopper ... in the meantime - let's see some of the target groups that you have been shooting with accuracy at 800 and 900yds.  The effective pie plate group with 8" MOA holes at 800yds would be an example of accuracy. 

To prove that the bullet shoots past 285yds (Cuts's targets) ... targets are needed to back up the accuracy of the bullet and the loading data.  Otherwise, the bullet's accuracy is PURE HIERSAY!  AND NO POWDER BURNS ON THE TARGETS! 

I also loaded some Original Big Lubes with 59.gr of H777 to see if I can duplicate that infamous 2 3/4 x 7" group at 600yds

[Dick Dastardly]

Ho John Boy,

You know me to be a sootlord, but I've never had my flames and smoke reach that far.  If this lake don't go away I may float a raft out there with a target frame on it.  Spotting splashes ought to make it easy to get on paper rite quick given a good naval spotter.

So far the skeeters haven't started up.  I'm expecting them soon.

DD-DLoS

[john boy]

You know me to be a sootlord, but I've never had my flames and smoke reach that far.

Dick, then I am totally confused.  Did you or didn't you ...

The back forty of my ranch ends up on wetlands.  It rained pitchforks and hammer handles today.  Tornado warnings abounded.  Still, I managed to get my purloined freezer carton off to the south 800 yards.  I put some pretty encouraging holes in it.  Three to get on "carton" and Ten for effect.  The end result was a group I could cover with a 8" pie plate.  The pie plate wasn't near the 10 ring however.

And if you did, a picture of the freezer carton would clearly speak to the accuracy of the bullet

[Dick Dastardly]

John Boy said, "And if you did, a picture of the freezer carton would clearly speak to the accuracy of the bullet".

The freezer box turned to mush in our last episode of the Great Midwest Monsoon.  I'll have to get another one and shoot some holes in it.  They're easy to get, but hard to get rid of.  The mushy ones go into the big recycling bin pretty easy tho.

DD-DLoS