A Disclaimer of Sorts - You Really Need to Use Common Sense!!! Opinions Wanted

[Two Flints]

Hello SSS,

It has been suggested to me that any threads on reloading that involves the use of smokeless powder should be followed by a HUGE DISCLAIMER or perhaps that such threads offering smokeless data should not be posted unless the smokeless loading data has been researched by a ballistics lab as being "safe" to use.  It has also been suggested that some individuals are playing with fire by shooting smokeless powder loads in their ORIGINAL Spencers.  Furthermore, and once again, it has been suggested that ANY smokeless data should NOT BE POSTED on SSS unless there was HARD scientific data from an approved ballistics lab reporting on the safety of such loads, and that such smokeless loads were intended for Spencer reproduction models only.

There are those of you as members of SSS who have done a considerable amount of reloading.  I am still a novice at loading.  I would appreciate your comments to the above suggestions (in italics) made to me by a concerned and supportive member of SSS.

Please keep your comments civil and respectful of all opinions expressed.

Thanks,

Two Flints

[Appalachian Ed]

I have been shooting and reloading for period firearms for many years. In my opinion ANY smokeless load in an original BP era firearm is a HUGE mistake. Others may agree and some may differ, and I am sure they will.

-Ed

[Fox Creek Kid]

In my opinion ANY smokeless load in an original BP era firearm is a HUGE mistake.

Ditto. 

[Glenn]

Reloading around 50 years.  I wouldn't use smokeless in a muzzle stuffer but my Spencer doesn't seem to mind.  Neither does my Sharps Borchardt.  I'm sure not going to try to gin up super loads (that's all my shoulder needs, a hot smokeless load in a 50-140).  I've watcher other idiots stuff powder in by the scoop and hope for the best, I won't do it.  I really like black powder but it's nice not to have to clean up after black now and then.  Consider, they sell smokeless loads that are assumed to be safe in black powder arms in 25-20, 32-20, 38-40, 44-40, 45C, 45-70, and others.

[Hell-Er High Water]

First of all, let me say that I know nothing about original Spencer firearms so none of my following comments apply to them.

I use, and have been using for the last 20 - 30 years, smokeless loads in the following calibers in original firearms:  40-70 Sharps Straight in a converted Remington Rolling Block, 43 Spanish in a Peabody, 11MM Mauser in a model 71/84 Mauser, 45-70 in a Trapdoor Springfield, 45-85-285 (45-70) in a Large Frame Colt Lightning, 50-70 in a converted Remington Rolling Block.

All of these cases have similar capacities, albeit not identical, but by using starting, published, smokeless loads for the 45-70 cartridge for the Trapdoor Springfield, safe, useable, accurate loads have been obtained for all.  All firearms were checked by competent gunsmiths to verify their safety before any firing was done.

It is my opinion that as long as a systematic, sensible approach such as this is used that smokeless loads can be developed for any similar cartridge in a firearm that has been verified safe by a competent gunsmith.

As for smokeless loads in my reproduction (Taylor's) 56-50 Spencer, when I first looked at these I considered the 56-50 to be a shortened version of the 50-70; granted time wise it happened the other way around.  Most published, starting, smokeless 50-70 loads use some kind of a filler or wad over the powder, so by starting with these in the 56-50 case with similar weight bullets, without a filler or wad and so long as the powder was not being compressed, suitable safe and accurate smokeless loads have been obtained.

Some may disagree with my methods and thoughts on this subject but this has worked for me as a sensible approach for many years.

HHW

[Harve Curry]

Smokeless ammunition for a black powder era cartridge can be reloaded to a pressure that is equal to or less then it's black powder loading. With smokeless you probably won't get as much velocity and stay at black powder pressure ranges. You can develope loads that are gentler to an old gun then a black powder load. It has been tested in labs with the 45-70 and some others for generations. The same data can be interpolated for other black powder metalic cartridges. My 45-70 load that I've been using for 15+ years tested in a pressure barrel at 12,000PSI. A new modern brass case can withstand thousands of psi by itself, addding strenghth and a magin of safety, but no one mentions that fact.
But I digress. There is to much sniveling from behind, naysayers posts that offer nothing of substance from nameless exspurts who would be the first to run behind a lawyer's shirt tail.

[Fox Creek Kid]

Harve, don't you think that you're throwing the baby out with the bath water? No less an authority than Mike Venturino recently discussed this very topic in a recent column with photos of a destroyed original '76 Win. Also, recently I spoke with a ballistics technician at Hogdon for an unrelated matter (modern pistol cartridge) and queried him on this very topic of using smokeless in original BP firearms whereupon he replied it was akin to insanity.

Harve, I've spoken with you and like you as well. However, your credentials do not match the previously aforementioned individuals and you know it. So there you have it, the foremost PUBLISHED expert on 19th century firearms and a REAL accredited ballistics tech who say not to do it. I'll change my opinion when someone with better credentials as well as concrete data says it's safe.

I know some will interpret this wrongly but so be it, but there is simply no excuse to extrapolate data based upon hyperbole and conjecture simply to disguise a personal distaste for cleaning a firearm, especially when it could kill other people.

[springfield]

I have an Original Webley British Bulldog. It takes Webley 45 ammo, called also Colt 450 here in the states. I cut down some 45 Colt brass and loaded up the lightest load I could find, real mouse fart rounds. It worked ok for the first 10 rounds, and then on the 11th blew the cylinder apart. The brass didn't even rupture, I could reload it if I wanted to. Maybe it woulda done it anyway with BP, maybe not. All I know is now I have a paperweight instead of a very nice Webley. WIth old guns, you take your chances. I learned my lesson. I now have an original 1884 Springfield Trapdoor. BP only, period.

[French Jack]

The real fly in the  frosting is that many if not most, of the original firearms were made of lesser strength metals than presently used.  Some were carefully made and heat treated, but both metals and treating are subject to age and use stress.  Some original actions were robust enough to withstand more than others, but without actual magnaflux testing, you cannot be certain that there are no hidden flaws.  I have used original actions for projects that involved higher pressure cartridges than were originally in them.  I have been more careful after seeing some fail, sometimes in manners that caused injury. 

I really believe that originals should only be fired with loads that duplicate original loadings, and save the other loadings for modern replicas that are both stronger and LESS VALUABLE.  I can replace a replica, originals are much more difficult.

Just my two cents worth.

[Trailrider]

The real fly in the  frosting is that many if not most, of the original firearms were made of lesser strength metals than presently used.  Some were carefully made and heat treated, but both metals and treating are subject to age and use stress.  Some original actions were robust enough to withstand more than others, but without actual magnaflux testing, you cannot be certain that there are no hidden flaws.  I have used original actions for projects that involved higher pressure cartridges than were originally in them.  I have been more careful after seeing some fail, sometimes in manners that caused injury. 

I really believe that originals should only be fired with loads that duplicate original loadings, and save the other loadings for modern replicas that are both stronger and LESS VALUABLE.  I can replace a replica, originals are much more difficult.

Just my two cents worth.

I have to agree, Pard.  In the instance of Spencers, cartridge conversion Sharps, and several other original guns, they were manufactured over 140 years ago!  Not only was the metallurgy of the time quite primative, but neglect in cleaning both black powder fouling and lead from the barrels (especially in military weapons) may have lead to corrosion in the metal matrix, that leaves the gun a hazard waiting to happen.  Thirty years ago, I shot light, carefully developed smokeless loads in a number of original Sharps, Spencers, Model 1868 and '73 Trapdoor Springfields, and never had a problem.  Of late, I have virtually retired all of them, not even trusting them to hold up under black powder, which while limited in maximum pressures developed still can produce more of a shock to the gun than properly tailored smokeless loads.

These original guns, especially the older ones, are part of our heritage, and ought to be preserved for posterity.  With the production of replicas with modern steel, it is probably the better part of valor to buy and shoot them.  Just MHO, but there it is...

Ride careful, Pards,

[Arizona Trooper]

I'm of two minds on this one. I shoot some smokeless in some BP arms, but won't in others. For instance, my Spencers and Ballards have never had smokeless, and never will. The Whitney Kennedys, Trapdoors, Lees and such, I'll shoot with bulky smokeless powders and light loads, IF the headspeace is OK. In the days of Spencers, no one understood the importance of headspace. Some perfectly sound antiques have lots of headspace, and I would never shoot them with smokeless. Also, many powders (such as Unique and 2400) that are regularly recommended, are way too easy to double load. If you are not an experienced reloader, read everything you can on BP reloading (like Mike V.'s books), and stick to black.

Below is a true tale of what can happen when mixing smokeless powder with antique arms. I wasn't there but know the writer well. Take heed!

----------------

"I once encountered a gentleman who had, due to total inexperience with reloading equipment, loaded a double load, about 48 or so grains, of 2400. He was shooting next to me at Ft. Ross during one of the Fall Gatling Gun events and we both were shooting original 1888 Model Springfield Rifles. When he couldn't get the fired shell from the chamber I got involved and rodded it out. After a long interrogation he admitted that the last time he and his expert reloading buddy had fired the gun, and after a mighty roar, they couldn't eject the empty. They fired 5 of these rounds before deciding that there may have been a problem. They pulled the bullets and checked the charges and found their mistake."

"Due to a severe ring and swelled chamber he had ejection trouble even with legitimate loads. I advised him to NOT shoot the piece any more. I put the muzzle of both his and my rifles on my toe and compared the chambers. His looked like a 50-70 compared to mine."

Jim Brady

[O.T. Buchannan]

I've been reloading for both blackpowder and smokeless cartridges, for 25 years or so.  I've shot a LOT of old guns, and I've never had an issue.  HOWEVER, I believe in putting smokeless powder in smokeless powder firearms, and blackpowder in blackpowder firearms.  I have an original Model 1865 Spencer in .56-50 that I've shot for a lot of years now....all with blackpowder loads. 

Two things I would say:  First, especially if it is an older firearm, I would strongly recommend getting it checked out by a gunsmith familiar with such arms.  Second, stick to the loads that the gun was intended to fire.  This is MY view....

[Rancid Roy]

From what I have read in my few years of reloading, smokeless powder continues to build pressure from the time of ignition to the point of the bullet leaving the barrel or just before. It burns progressively.

Black powder is a simple explosive. It explodes and its does not build any more pressure after the explosion.

Due to the natures of smokeless it is considered unwise by ballisticly knowledgeable folks to shoot smokeless in black powder weapons, even new made black powder weapons. The pressures of even the most carefully handloaded rounds will vary in smokeless powders.

In the case of the Walker Colt, within a year after they were issued they were already blowing up the cylinders with full loads of blackpowder.

I would suggest that if smokeless loads for original or new blackpowder weapons be posted here it be done with a caveat warning such......"ya'll be careful now ya hear?"

Seriously a warning attached to loads shoud suffice. If you want to proceed that's your business.