Old Remington 1858 and a Newbie

[Jethro "Black Jack" Harris]

Howdy, Pards and Pardettes,
Bein' as ah'm from New Mexico, originally, ah kin talk the talk, but ah'm too new to walk the walk. New to BP, that is. Haven't shot a gun in 35 yrs. Got my first revolver couple weeks ago and doin' mah homework. It's a Euroarms Remington. It's labeled a 1858 New Army in .36 caliber with a 6 1/2" barrel. Date stamp on the frame says it wuz made in 1970. There's no other date stamp anywares an only one serial number, on the butt. Hammer pull is tough an' it has a hair trigger so ah got ta be careful first time ah shoot it so's ah don't shoot any innocent bystanders. Less'n they's varmits. Ah'm lookin' fur advice on what kinda powder, how much of a load, whether ta use grease or wads, etc. Like ah said...ah'm new...

Any and all advice welcomed, appreciated, and will be followed,

Adios fur now,
Jethro (aka Black Jack Harris)

[hellgate]

Hey BJ,
I've got TWO of those guns, both "beaters" (although one is a bit more beaten than the other) made about the same time. Let me know if you ever want to sell it. I like the Euro 36 Remmies. Here's what I have to say about what works for me:
-Both .375 and .380 diameter balls work for me. A friend of mine has one that only takes the .380 balls, the 375s fall out.
-I like lots of grease and lube. I use automotive grease over the ball from a curved tip irrigation syringe, any of the BP lubes will work even better but cheapo generic automotive grease works contrary to the gospel of organic oils only.
-I also use under the ball lube wads punched from 1/8" felt and lubed with 50/50 beeswax and olive oil (home made Wonder Wads)
-Get the double cavity LEE bullet mold for the .380 round ball and another for the LEE 36cal conical ball. The conical is 130grs, the ball is 81grs. The conical will shoot higher but will knock down more fallers. I use both.
-get FFFg black powder for the best most reliable ignition and BOOM. Pyrodex P is OK but can be less reliable to set off as it needs hard compression of the rammer to pack it tight. I have not tried 777 in any of my C&Bs but it would likely work quite well and be much less fouling and corrosive than the other two powders mentioned. For BP & Pyro P a charge of 15-23 grains for the ball and 15-20 for the conical is what I shoot. I have not used 777 yet but would start at 15grs and work up to about 20 grs. These loads are measured in VOLUME EQUIVALENT to BP. i.e. you use a BP powder spout to measure all of the powders as if they were BP. The actual weight of charges may vary from BP but the volume of powder is the same and the power is the same except that 777 is 15-20% more powerful than any other BP or substitute.
-Get a 15 and a 20 grain spout. Whether you use a wad with a conical or round ball or not will determine how much powder you can use. With BP or Pyro P  you can put as much powder as will allow you to ram the bullet below the chamber mouth. I.E. you can't overload the gun. I have overcharged my C&Bs many times with BP and rammed as hard as I could (sometimes whittling some lead with a knife to get the chamber to rotate to the barrel) and shot it out.
-The nipples on the older guns like yours often are smaller than newer ones so the CCI#10 or CCI#11 caps might work. I use Remington#10s which are larger but have traded out the nipples for the old Uncle Mike's/Butler Creek stainless nipples that fit the Rem#10s perfectly without falling off. Until you find the correct cap size you may need to pinch the cap mouth out of round so it will grip the nipples. If the caps are too tight use a 1/4-5/16" dowel to push the caps onto the cones (proper term for nipples).
-Have a little squeeze bottle of oil (olive works for me or Ballistol) to put onto the cylinder front where it touches the frame so it works down onto the cylinder pin if the cylinder gets gummy from shooting.
-Put the automotive grease onto the contact surfaces of the back of the cylinder where it rubs on the recoil plate/frame and grease the cylinder pin well.

That's all I can think of right off the bat. Feel free to email me for advice. I have used a variety of C&Bs in CAS since 1993 and have no intention of changing. I've got about 17 right now and shoot them all. I've traded off or sold at least 10 others. Again, if you get tired of it, let me know, I might need it. My bet is you will be looking to pair it up.

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Howdy, Jethro, aka Black Jack Harris!

Welcome!

Let's see:


Bullet: pure lead round ball or conical around .375" to .380" (round ball is more economical)

Powder:  Goex, Kik, Scheutzen, APP, Swiss and others.  I prefer Goex, the real deal, 'tho Scheutzen and Swiss are difinitely real, just more pricey

Load: between 15-25 grs. - I like the charge from a 20 gr. spout.  Measured weight will likely be about 18-19 grs.  BP is fluffy!  You properly load by VOLUME, not specifically weight.

Caps: you'll need to do some searching for the brand/type and size that fits best.  A #11 will probably fit the Italian nipples, but you'll do well to take out the cylinder and TAKE it somewhere that you can actually try the caps on your nipples.    The old word is "Cones."  Later you MAY want to change the stock nipples for some TRESO replacements, but let's get ya shootin' before spending $20 to $25 more just for nipples.  (You also might be lucky and have bought a gun that has already had the nipples replaced!  You said it was made in '70 - you didn't say whether it was new or used.)

To do the deed: fill chamber, ram down the bullet, cover with BP friendly grease or Crisco, cap with whatever caps FIT best - probably a #11 size from CCI or Remington or RWS, aim low of center if closer than 25 ft., pull that hair trigger and enjoy the BOOM, fire and smoke!  Now - smile a lot!



A lot of folks who know original NMA (and I THINK yours is properly called the "New Model Navy" despite the marking) guns say that the Interarms imported guns are truest to the size of the original revolvers.

Seriously, that's it in a nutshell, but I didn't mention some of the suggested pre-fire tasks like firing a cap in all nipples/empty chambers to make sure any oil is gone, cleaning and lubing the gun, either before or after and such, but I got ya the basics!

More here will add lots more, 'til yer head swims, but here's your starting info!

Ballistol and it's brother "Moosemilk" is a very popular cleaner/lubricant.  it works for me - but I actually prefer a product from Hoppes called "Hoppes #9 Plus" Black Powder cleaner.  It may not be any better than Ballistol/Moosemilk, but TO ME it smells better!  Ballistol flat stinks!    But it works!  There's another post here titled "Ballistol" that explains moosemilk. http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,20281.0.html



Oh ... Never dry-fire!

[Jethro "Black Jack" Harris]

This is to both hellgate and Steel Horse.

Thanks. Accents aside (and I did talk that way when I was a young'n), you've given me lots to chew on. There's only one gun shop around where I live that deals with BP that I know of, but there's always Cabela's or some other online store. I bought the Remmie used, very used. It came in a wooden box with a red felt liner and partitions. There was some shot, a powder flask, a tin of #12 caps, and a bullet mold (not sure of the size - how would I find out?). No nipple wrench, but I bought one at a gun show a week or so ago. I'm not convinced the barrel or cylinder are original to the frame. The cylinder comes out easy enough but is a bear to get back in. That lever (the hand?) on the frame under the hammer doesn't move back when I cock the gun with the cylinder out, so I have to manhandle the cylinder to get it to where the rod will seat. I knew this when I bought the gun, and am willing to work with it. As for whether it's an Army or a Navy, I have read on the SCORRS website that the Army was .44 and the Navy was .36 and the Italians aren't always accurate (as with the .44 cal Colt 1851 Navy).

As for shooting it, there is an outdoor range nearby, but I haven't contacted them to see if they allow BP. I want to know all I can before I go to shoot cuz I really don't want to shoot myself in the foot! I know once I do go that they'll have a hard time gettin' me to leave tho!

I haven't found a gun club closer than an hour and a half drive from here (Sonoma County, Ca) but I'll look into that more later. There's also a Civil War re-enactment that happens near here every summer. I'll be checking with those folks too.

I'd love to get a comanion for my Remmie, but that will have to wait a couple paydays!

Thanks again, amigos,
Black Jack

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Howdy!

Make sure the hammer is at half-cock first!  When you're replacing the cylinder, "roll" it in the direction that it turns when you cock it.  Understand?  In other words, as you push sideways into the slot, use your fingers to also turn the cylinder.  Clockwise.  (lloking from the back forward.)  It should bump that "hand" and spring into the frame recess, making it easier.  Ya still gotta hold yer mouth, tongue and nose just right - 'til ya git the hang of it.

If those caps fit without falling off, use them.  Even if they've been sitting a while and lost some of their "juice" they'll do well to use on the nipples with the cylinder UN-loaded, to clear any oil that might be hiding in the nipples.

Yep, the Italians don't always get the details right!  You mentioned one of my tiny pet peeves.  Altho' an 1851 style 44 is a cool gun, neither Colt or ANY of the Confederate copies were 44.  No brass framed Remingtons, either OR 1860 styles - steel OR brass.  Now that Spiller & Burr you show in your avatar picture ... that's a different story!  In my opinion, it's the coolest 36 cal. gun from the Rebs!!!  Hands down!!!!!

[Jethro "Black Jack" Harris]

Howdy, Steel,

Yep, that Spiller and Burr is nice. There's a gun store in the area that had one on consignment (Pietta, I think it was, circa 2001) for about $150 but they didn't know what it was and neither did I til I saw it on the web. If I had the money I'd go back and see if they still have it. The guy behind the counter was asking me questions about BP. I answered as much as I could.

Keep yer powder dry!
BJ

[hellgate]

Jethro,
On getting the cylinder back in place: I put it on half cock then get my tongue, squint, and grimace just right then i look at the hand and roll the cylinder counterclockwise, so the edge pushes the hand upward and into the slot THEN i slide the cylinder past and roll it clockwise to engage the bolt into the cylinder slot to position it for the cylinder pin. Half the time I roll it the wrong way at first. Basically you have to bump the hand up & out of the way to get the cylinder back in. It takes precision fumbling.

[Jethro "Black Jack" Harris]

On getting the cylinder back in place: It takes precision fumbling.

hellgate,
No doubt about it...I gotta rent "Pale Rider" and watch that final shootout scene a few times. If Clint can do it, so can I. But those were conversion cylinders, weren't they? Oh well....

[Wwalstrom]

As far as replacing the cylinder goes, I've always had problems with the "book" way ... i.e. - put the hammer at half cock, and slide it in, I personally ruined a hand or two doing it that way.  The way I remove and install the cylinder is as follows:
(1) Drop the loading lever
(2) Pull out the cylinder pin
(3) Rotate the revolver so the cylinder window in the frame is more or less facing the ground.
(4) THIS IS IMPORTANT! Place your free hand underneath the cylinder.
(5) Move the hammer back, about 1/8 of an inch ... NOT to half cocked.  This may vary from gun to gun and manufacturer to manufacturer.  The cylinder WILL drop right into your open hand (see previous step). Moving the hammer back will pull the hand into the frame window, and not interfere with the cylinder notches.

To reinstall the cylinder, I just follow the steps backwards, with one exception,
(6) Place the cylinder into the frame opening, and "lightly" rotate it until one of the cylinder bolt/stop notches catches on the bolt/stop.
then
(7) See #5, above
( move the cylinder back into position.  This will take a little practice to get it close enough for the next step.  IMO, this seems a bit easier with my conversion cylinder.
(9) Push the cylinder pin back.  Adding a slight taper/chamfer to the end of the cylinder pin (and to the mating hole in the cylinder) will make up for any missalignment.
(10) Replace the loading lever

[Jethro "Black Jack" Harris]

Howdy, Gents,
Well, practice ain't made perfect but i'm gettin' better at it. I've tried both the half-cocked and 1/8 inch methods and it seems I need an extra thumb to hold the hammer back if'n it ain't cocked.

Muchas gracias, mi amigos,
Jethro "Black Jack" Harris