Need help from the experts, 45colt or 44-40?

[Peter M. Eick]

I have been wanting to buy an iron (steel) framed Henry every since I met a rancher in western Colorado who had an original iron one.  At the time I knew nothing about it, but he and I struck up a friendship and he let me handle it among other guns he had.  He talked about still shooting it up until the 70's (1970's that is) when they ran out of ammo and it became a wall hanger.  His ancestors brought it out after the civil war because as he said his grandfather or great-grandfather had served, seen too much killing and appreciated what the Henry could do.  It was a neat gun and was in decent shape for something that old.  It was all grey and had surface wear but it still looked good.  I could easily picture it as an original one.  After the war he just wanted to go away from people and hole up.  Hence that is how he ended up in western Colorado homesteading a box canyon out of the way of folks.  There was an understanding that I would get it when he died since his kids did not want it, but when he passed on by the time I heard of it the iron frame was long gone.

So fast forward nearly 20 years to now.

I am looking at buying a steel framed Henry 1860 Uberti and what caliber should I as a non-black powder shooter and heavy reloader get for just plinking at the range for fun?

I have read many hundreds of posts over the years on the pros of 44-40 or 45colt depending on who you read.  I have read nearly ever post on this site, NSSA, many on the SASS and most of the other firearms forums.  My impression of all of this information is that the 44-40 is better for BP and probably more accurate but harder to reload easily.  The 45 colt is cheaper to reload, easier because of carbide dies and thicker brass and more options on commercial bullets (I don't cast).  The 44-40 has a reputation of being more accurate in general then the 45 colt, but if you piddle with the hardness of the bullet you can overcome that limitation.  The 44-40 is more historic but the 45 is more modern practical.

So now I turn to you all who are the recognized experts on the Henry's.  I am looking at Cimarron's and Taylor's.  New and used.  I have the option of 2 new 45 colt, 1 new 44-40 or 2 used 44-40's.  I have to say it is not obvious what to do and that is perplexing.

Any advice on caliber and what to do?  I will be probably buying on Saturday morning.

Thanks!

[Black Powder]

I would opt for the 44/40 to be as close as possible to what obviosly has served as your inspiration for all these years.  Absolutely.  No doubt.  The extra effort required for reloading will make it all the more special.  As pure an emotional decision as you can get.  You've already addressed all the rational issues.

Now about that second used one...

BP

[Will Ketchum]

If I were going to shoot mostly BP I would go with the 44-40.  I reload for both and don't feel as if the 44 is anymore difficult to load than the 45.   You do need to use some lube but not much.  I just toss 50 cases or so in a zip lock and spray one of the spray lubes in and shake the bag some.  Then dump them out on some paper towels and allow to dry.(less than a minute should do it.)  Follow the lube instructions about lubing the die the first time.  The 44-40 case is thinner and it is possible to wrinkle a case but with a small amount of care it won't happen often.

Another thing if you only load for one gun in 44-40 you might not even have to resize the brass.  Just get a universal decapping die and decap all your brass and then just prime and load it normally.  Try a small batch first and I am sure you will find they will feed and chamber just fine.

I loaded about a 1,000 rounds for my 44-40 Henry last year and I don't think I sized any of them.  Everyone chambered.

I hope this helps.  Feel free to PM me with any questions.

Will Ketchum

[Long Johns Wolf]

FWIW: you may want to consider a 3rd alternative, namely a Henry in .44 Special caliber. And load her with .44 Colt. 15 in the tube, like the original. Requires little fitting of the carrier, however, but she will be a tack-driver.
Long Johns Wolf

[stepnmud]

with a Henry and blackpowder loads, would choose 44WF. For bullets, just have them sent to your front door by mail order, Springfield Slim can fix ya up as well as others like Desperado Bullets.
http://www.cowboybullets.com/Products.html#44-40Cal

[Peter M. Eick]

Thanks guys!

I was going back and forth and was thinking 45colt due to ease of reloading, but I keep hearing about accuracy issues and blowback along with toggle link forces and so I was thinking about 44WCF.   I have gone back and forth maybe 20 times in the last 3 months of thinking about it.

A few days ago I was firmly convinced to go 44wcf and then I got some feedback that the 44wcf was too hard to load etc and that shook my confidence in the decision.

I thought about it all day today and I figured that I load 12 to 20 thousand rounds a year and have shot over a quarter million reloads in my life with no problems.  I cannot be intimidated by the "problems" of the 44-40.

Your comments have convinced me to go 44-40 and be accept the challenges.

I will let you know what she looks like when I pick it out this weekend.  They have 1 new and 2 used to pick from or another dealer can order me a Taylor if none of the Cimarron's "feel" right.

Take care and thanks again!

[Cannon Fodder]

Peter,

Let me give another viewpoint. Shoot the same caliber as your pistols! Mine are 45 lc. When I first started shooting SASS I purchased  a used  Henry  in 44/40. Although I tried to keep the  45lc and 44/40  separate, in the "heat" of the moment  I almost  locked up a 45lc in the 44/40 henry . A gunsmith got it fixed for me  but the 44/40 henry  then went away.

Best,Cannon Fodder

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

I don't think you will regret your decision. ALL of my CAS rifles are chambered for 44-40, four of them, with the exception of the little 357Mag/38Sp Marlin I bought for the Mrs. All my CAS pistols are chambered for 45 Colt. I don't have any trouble keeping the two calibers straight, and I've been doing this for a fairly long time now. But that's another story.

I'll bet whoever tried to scare you away from 44-40 has never loaded any. I've loaded zillions of both 45 Colt and 44-40. I will say that loading 44-40 is a bit 'fussier' than loading 45 Colt. But it is not difficult. You just have to pay a bit more attention to the details. Yes, the thinner necks can be a bit troublesome, don't slam them into the bottom of the resizing die. It may mean you have to pull the press handle a little bit slower. And I have a couple of tricks that I use to get good crimps without crumpling necks and without needing a separate crimp die. Be glad to let you in on my tricks.

I really doubt if 44-40 is significantly more accurate than 45 Colt. Since the most common bullet is a 200 grain bullet, and the most common bullet with 45 Colt is a 250 grainer, the 44-40 is probably a tad flatter shooting with the same powder charge. But flatter shooting does not necessarily mean more accurate. Interestingly enough, I use the exact same powder charge for 44-40 as I do for 45 Colt, with both Black Powder and Smokeless.

Yes, that thin neck does make 44-40 seal better than 45 Colt with most normal reloading operations, but that really is not an issue if you are shooting Smokeless, it only comes to bear with Black Powder. But with 44-40 you will be all set if the BP bug should bite.

The other nice thing about the Henry is that extra stiff barrel. I hear a lot of reports about how accurate folks' Henrys are. I suspect it is because the extra metal in the slab of steel the barrel and magazine are hogged out of is stiffer than a conventional barrel that is made from a piece of round or octagon stock. Just a suspicion on my part.

My Henry is the steel framed case hardened model chambered for 44-40. I wouldn't own a rifle chambered for 45 Colt, it just ain't right. Yes, I know the Henry was never chambered for 44-40, but neither was it ever case hardened that I am aware of. I was actually thinking of blueing the frame on my Henry until I actually got my hands on it and saw how pretty it is. The last year and a half the Henry was the only rifle that I took to matches. My '73, my old WInchester '92 and my old Marlin '94 are starting to get mighty lonesome being cooped up in the safe all the time.

Ain't nothing like a Henry. Specially loaded with Black Powder 44-40s.

[Peter M. Eick]

Well since I don't load 45 colt or 44-40 right now I am not worried about mixing up the ammo.  I was originally thinking I would do this on my progressive, but I think I need to step back and work on my Rockchucker like I do all my rifle ammo.  I think was got me was the size of the round and not that it truly is a rifle round and not a pistol one.

Driftwood, I starting from scratch on this one so any tips or suggestions will be welcome.  I will pick up the Iron Framed 44-40 tomorrow.  I will probably buy the new one if it is still there, but if not I have two used to pick from.  I will just pick the nicer of the two.

So if you were to start from scratch, how would you do 44-40 over again?

RCBS steel or Cowboy dies, or some other brand?
Unique, Trailboss, 2400 or some other powder (not black to start with)?
Starline brass or some other type?
I tend to shoot mostly Lasercast lead bullets, so here I am wide open.  Suggestions?

Tips and tricks will be readily accepted.  I am a knowledgeable reloader, but I can always learn something new.

Thanks a bunch.

[Will Ketchum]

I have 2 progressive presses, 1 turret and 3 single stage.  I have never loaded 44-40 on any but the progressive, although I do it differently than they were designed.   I decap on a single stage and use a hand primer to prime.  After I have my cases primed I start at the 1st stage with the powder dump.  2nd stage, powder RCBS check/lockout die, 3rd bullet seating and 4 Lee factory crimp die.  Works for me.  I do this with every pistol caliber I load for.   I don't like priming on the press so I don't.  With a Henry you really don't want a high primer.  I am a lot more confident with a hand primer.

Will Ketchum

[Peter M. Eick]

Thanks for the tips.

I picked it up and pictures will follow soon!

I have to say I have not been this just plain absolutely giddy happy since I bought my Registered Magnum and fired it the first time.  It was just a kick to take that first shot.  I was shooting on the 50 and off the bench with 200 grn CBC lead rounds it was like shooting my 9422.  I just was laughing out loud.  What a great rifle.  I quickly learned about the henry "hop" as you shoot off bags and moved down to sitting position.  There I was not as accurate but it was still a lot of fun.  Maybe 4" groups just sort of plinking away.  I found it was shooting low left.  Maybe 4" left and 1" low with the sight down.  Nice sight picture, but not hitting where I was aiming was a bit of a pain.  I am not good a kentucky windage.

I went with the Cimarron 44-40 in an Steel Framed and found that after a 100 shots it was just starting to really smooth up.  There is not a lot of bolt to hold the case in the chamber so I would not want to push the gun very hard.  The bluing and polish is excellent but the trigger is a bit heavy for real precision shooting.  For just blasting it is great. 

It certainly drew a crowd at the range and got a lot of questions.  Just me shooting 44-40 and a bunch of guys with their AR's down on the 50.  I was doing about the same as them but they all had scopes.  Funny how that works out that way. 

Well tomorrow I will order up a complete set of reloading equipment.  I am just waiting to hear additional thoughts before I plunk down more cash on potentially the wrong tools. 

By the way, I was expecting much worse on the thinness of the brass.  The CBC stuff was not bad at all.  Thin yes, rice paper no.  I don't see much problem running it through my Pro-2000 progressive if I use a bit of care.

Take care, thanks for the tips and I am looking forward to any additional ones!

[Gripmaker]

Just a bit of info for loading the 44-40. Instead of the regular expander die that comes with your particular set of dies, if you use an expander plug for the 44 mag. you will decrease you case loss by about 100%. There is not enough more expansion with this die to create a problem with the necks splitting and has actually increased the life of my brass considerably. That goes for brass and nickel  cases. Have lsot thrre cases in the last year but only due to getting in a hurry and not having case fully into holder before sizing. When the 44-40  makes you that giddy while reloading, it just has to be THE load to use.
God Bless and shoot safe.

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

There are no carbide dies available for 44-40, so you will have to lube your cases, unless you buy Hornady dies. Hornady dies are Titanium Nitride coated and act like carbide in that you do not need case lube.

I load 44-40 with a plain 'vanilla' set of RCBS dies. I have read that the RCBS Cowboy dies are better suited to loading with lead bullets, but I have never had any problem with the regular dies. I use Hornady One Shot case lube. A little dab will do you.

I always use Winchester brass as it has the thinnest necks of all. This is useful if your chamber is running a little bit tight and your rifling requires a large diameter bullet. The thin Winchester brass will be a little bit more forgiving with a larger diameter bullet in a tight chamber.

What bullet diameter you choose depends on your barrel groove diameter, it can vary with 44-40 guns. Historically, .427 was the industry standard groove diameter for 44-40, although in the 19th Century it could vary from around .425 to around .430 or even more. Today, many 44-40 guns are being manufactured with the same .429 barrels as 44 Special/44 Magnum guns. But not all. My Uberti 1873 has a barrel groove diameter of .427. Most of the Uberti guns I have read about recently seem to be running around .429. The only way you will know for sure is to slug the barrel. I started loading 44-40 for an original Winchester Model 1892 with .427 diameter rifling and I was using commercial .427 bullets in it. When I bought my Uberti 1873 I slugged the barrel and found out it was .427 also, so I continued using .427 bullets in it. When I started shooting Black Powder in my '73 I experimented with soft lead .427, .428, and .429. The '73 shot equally well with all three diameter bullets, but the .429 bullets were a little bit difficult to chamber because of the tight chamber situation I mentioned earlier. For that reason, I decided to stay with .427 bullets, although with the thin Winchester brass I could have used .428. When I bought my Henry a couple of years ago I slugged the bore and found out it was .429 in diameter. Theoretically, I should be shooting .429 or .430 bullets in it. But I have compromised with .428 so that I can use the same ammo in my '73 and my Henry. I have not actually tried any .429 or .430 bullets in my ammo so I do not know if I would have chambering problems. I cast my own bullets for Black Powder, so I have the ability to size them to whatever diameter I want. You may be limited to .427 or .429 bullets if you have to buy bullets.

Once you have figured all that out, the comment that gripmaker made becomes usefull. The expander plug that comes with most 44-40 dies is for .427 bullets. The expander plug that comes with a 44 Mag die is a little bit larger in diameter, for .429 bullets. I have never had a problem using the stock expander plug with my 44-40 dies. However, the larger plug will expand the neck a tad more, and with larger diameter bullets, like .429 or .430 this will create slightly less friction when seating the bullet and can lead to a bit less crumpling at the neck. Like I say, I have always used the standard plug with no trouble, but with larger diameter bullets you may find the larger plug useful.

That same thin neck that makes the 44-40 so great at sealing chambers can be its achilles heel in reloadiing. First off, go slowly enough that you don't slam a case into the bottom of a die. If a case is a little bit off center in the shell plate or shell holder, and it slams into the bottom of a die, you will probably crumple the neck and ruin the case. The sturdier 45 Colt case would simply shrug off the blow. 44-40 cases run around .007 thick at the neck, 45 Colt runs around .012 thick at the neck.

That same thin neck can also be a problem when crimping. If you seat and crimp your bullets in one step, and the die is not set perfectly, you may have problems. What happens is that as the bullet is being seated the last couple of thousandths, the case is also rising the last couple of thousandths into the crimping restriction in the die. If the case is still rising and the case mouth 'bottoms' against the underside of the top of the crimp groove in the bullet, the brass has to go someplace. With a sturdy case like 45 Colt the brass will just buldoze its way right into the sofer lead until all motion stops. No problem. But the thinner brass of the 44-40 is not so sturdy and will usually come to a stop against the lead, without being able to bulldoze in any farther. If the case is continuing to rise for a few thousandths, something has to give, and what usually happens is the brass will crumple down underneath the bullet.

For this reason, many reloaders choose to seat their bullets in one die and crimp with a separate crimp die. But if one is very careful with setting their seating/crimp die one can successfully seat and crimp in the same die in one step. The trick is to set the die so that when the crimp is formed the case mouth does not need to shove into the lead at all. Ideally, the die should be set so that the case mouth forms the crimp and butts up against the underside of the top of the crimp groove perfectly, without travelling any further. My trick is that I set my seating/crimp die so there is a hairline of space between the leading edge of the case mouth and the underside of the top edge of the crimp groove. .005-.010 is about right. I just set this visually, I don't actually measure it.

If you trim all your brass to the exact same length, it should be easy to set your die with that tiny amount of space. I never trim my brass, so what I do is measure up a bunch of brass, and select a few of the longest pieces as my set up brass. I set my die, making up a few dummy rounds, with those longest pieces, and set the die so I have that hairline of space. That way I am assured that none of my brass will be longer and bump the mouth into the lead.

Loading your ammo into a tubular magazine you need to have a good strong crimp so that the bullets do not telescope back into the cases under recoil. This is not a problem with my loads since I use Black Powder and there is a solid plug of powder behind the bullet to prevent it from setting back. With Smokeless and the attendant airspace you need to make sure your crimp is strong enough that the bullets are not forced back by the magazine spring every time they are shoved back by the spring or by recoil.

I load all my 44-40 ammo on my Hornady AP progressive press, although I used to load it on a single stage press when I started.

For Smokeless powder in 45 Colt or 44-40 I prefer Unique, because it takes up a lot of space in the case. Trailboss would be good too, I just have not loaded much Smokeless ammo since before Trailboss came out.

[Peter M. Eick]

Wow, Thanks!

I had to reread that 3 times just to capture all of the information.  I will read it a few more times just to understand it all.

I guess the next step is to slug the bore and see what the real diameter is.  I have some lead balls that should fit.

[Henry4440]

I started shooting my 44-40 Henry with Accurate No.2 and changed to N340 with  Starline cartridges, WLP and a 205gr. Hornady Bullet.
But after changing to BP, i take Swiss2, 32,5gr.,i shoot my Henry only with BP now.That is real fun.
No problems with cleaning the Henry and no problems with loading my cartridges.

[Henry4440]

44-40 Henry.
205gr.Hornady
Starline case
WLP
32.6gr. Swiss2
100 meter

[Long Johns Wolf]

Tolles Schußbild, Lonesome Henry.
Long Johns Wolf

[Henry4440]

Tolles Schußbild, Lonesome Henry.
Long Johns Wolf

We had a little wind from the North sea.The life on the coast is not an easy one.

[wwpete52]

44-40 hands down! Hey if it's good enough for Marshall Dillion!