Cross Draw Stance

[Charlie Bowdre]

Guys and Gals

I'm not wanting to start a Range War but am looking for an answer to my question regards stance.

At present I have not taken part in any official shoot and when I do I will abide by what ever the local Range Rule is in place , but , I do wonder....if I should be spending any more time on a comfortable stance if it is illegal

Regarding drawing from a cross draw holster.I understand the Rule as written in the SASS Hand Book and its intent with regard to safety.

MY QUESTION :
Is it permissible to stand at right angles to the target , cross draw holster facing the target , move your hand across your body pull the revolver and at the same time ...with the rev. pointing downrange at the target ...step around ..ie square off and fire,

I realize this will add time to the stage but I am looking for a safe comfortable way to do this .
I can do the 'waist up twist if needs be but would this stance be allowable.

My description I hope is not too confusing. Basically I would be standing with say my left side facing the targets , head turned looking to my left at the targets , reach over with my RIGHT Hand and drawing and stepping around with my right foot to square off at the targets.

This would clear my left holster sidearm first then as I would be already 'square' to the targets I could use my right holstered side arm to fire my last 5 shots ...Which by the way would all be dead center hits...

Thanks for any replies.
A simple Yes or No would be sufficient.

Take care
Dutchie

[Camille Eonich]

You can do it anyway that you want so long as you don't break the 170.

[Russ T Chambers]

The only thing you forgot was that you have to realign yourself with your left holster pointed down range, as you did for your draw, when you place your left pistol back in its holster.  Both during draw and re-holster you must have the muzzle pointed down range.  This is true at the loading and unloading tables as well.  The muzzle must be pointed toward the table, when drawn and holstered.

[Charlie Bowdre]

CE Thanks

Rusty
Good point , I never thought of that . In looking at all the videos here , you never really see the loading sequence , as they mostly start as Arcey would say 'at the get go'
Tks
Dutchie.

One of the reasons for my complicating matters is that back in the day before they put me in a cruiser I fancied myself a 2 wheeler highway man. Well concrete pillars do nasty things to bones .Result as the old body starts to stiffen up ya find there are some simple movements ya can't do as well as ya once did .
NEVER MIND>>>>>   taking about shooting here

[Adirondack Jack]

I use a crossdraw, always have.  I do NOT do the dance, and have made it a practice to educate ROs on the necessity of it.

I DO stand in a "rifle shooter's pose, with my body and feet 45 degrees offset with regard the line, and unless stage movement dictates otherwise, shoot the left (crossdraw) gun first in a "back to back" pistol stage, then I'll typically bring the right foot forward a tad as I shoot the right hand gun, so I'm not caught in a position where I'm reholstering the straight drop right hand gun "behind" myself as regards my position VS the line.

try it half a dozen times with a line in the dirt as a "firing line".  Approach the line so your toes are on a "line" 45 degrees offset the firing line and see if it's gonna work. It does for me.  If I have broadly spaced targets that range to my left, I simply twist at the waist a little to get em.  No issue.

[Arcey]

Jack makes good points, I think. Will say our ROs are trained well enough they know one doesn't have to dance. When I have the clock I remind the noobs to watch their muzzles with the cross draws before I start 'em then again as they start their reach for it. We've one older fellah that really over exaggerates it but he isn't competitive 'n his muzzle stays downrange so he's ok.

I've taken noobs having questions to the side 'n watched 'em do what they think is right after I was sure their revolver was empty. Give 'em a l'il instruction. That seems to help. There'll be someone at your shoot that'll do that for ya if ya ask. We were all new 'n had to learn. Our club isn't unique when it comes to helpin' another shooter. That's how we keep our crowds healthy.

I stand square 'n even with my back I can swivel at the waist more'n enough to stay within the 170. Personal preference I reckon but I usually snatch the strong side first.

[Charlie Bowdre]

Thanks guys and gals . Arcey I sort of can relate to this guy.

We've one older fellah that really over exaggerates it but he isn't competitive 'n his muzzle stays downrange so he's ok.

But you know it is great to see that he is allowed to shoot away and enjoy his style of 'fun'. Good for you and your club

dutchie

[Arcey]

Sure he's allowed. As long as he's safe. He's only dangerous to the battery in the clock......

Know it's easy fer me ta tell ya ta relax 'n let it come ta ya. Been in it a long time myself. But it will 'n I think when ya meet up with some pards face ta face yer gonna find all kindahs help.

In the mean time, keep askin' here. Maybe we kin get ya an idea 'fore ya get there.

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

I do pretty much as you have outlined.

Although like my good pard AJ I have often taken ROs to task who insist on watching a shooter's feet, rather than the muzzle, and although no foot movement at all is required if you can draw and holster without breaking the 170, I do in truth do a very exagerated sashay when I pull my pistols.

I have always used a crossdraw in CAS and I have always shot Duelist. Which pistol I pull first often depends on whether I had to move first to get to where I was shooting. Movement to the right means my crossdraw holster is already lined up, so I will pull it first. Movement to the left means my straight draw holster is more lined up, so I will pull it first. At least, I try to remember this simple rule, but I have been known to screw it up. If the pistols are the first to be drawn from the starting position, I can't honestly tell you which pistol I pull first, it depends on my mood at the moment.

But I do yank my crossdraw pistol with my body about 90 degrees to the firing line, and I do then reverse myself so that I am facing sideways to the target, in a pretty classic Bulls Eye stance. Yes it takes more time. Who cares?

When you get to a match you will see some crossdraw shooters who manage to pull their pistols facing pretty much straight on to the target, by just swivelling their hips to bring the cross draw holster down range enough to not break the 170. You will also run into ROs who try to call them for that, I guarantee it. They are not calling according to official SASS rules, they are making up their own rules, or they are following some local club rule.

We crossdraw shooters are a dying breed. There are less and less of us every year as more and more shooters go to a pair of straight draw holsters. I am convinced that part of the reason for this is the myth that it is difficult to safely draw from a cross draw holster, and also because many ROs treat cross draw shooters as accidents waiting to happen.

Do not let this deter you. Shooting like you have described is perfectly legal. Just be prepared that you may meet with some extra scrutiny from ROs who don't really understand the cross draw rules.

[Professor Marvel]

Greetings and Salutations -
Without actually hijacking this thread I would like to query the esteemed if the so-called Hickock draw (butt forward) is usually allowed?
I have been practicing with my 1851's, gunfighter style, and find that to the best I am able to discern,  as the muzzles clear the leather  I am  able
to perform the "calvary twist" at the wrist whilst the muzzles point almost directly downward, then the muzzles begin to point downrange as I raise
said pistols. I hope this is making sense :-)
Is this style generally acceptable?

my grateful thanks, and
your humble servant
Prof Marvel

[Charlie Bowdre]

My question been answered I pass to the honorable Professor.

Hope they do s well for you.
dutchie

[Camille Eonich]

Some clubs have rules against the cavalry draw but it's SASS legal.  Don't know about NCOWS.


However, the cavalry twist is seen so rarely that if I were planning to use it whenever I shot at a new range I would speak to the Match Director before shooting and explain to them what I was planning to do and then be prepared to demonstrate that I could execute it without breaking the 170

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

Camille is correct, there is no SASS rule against the Cavalry Twist, but it is a good idea to be prepared to demonstrate your efficiency if you are not known locally. You may encounter the occaisional club with a local rule against it. My Pard Wild Bill Blackerby uses the Cavalry twist. When he shows up someplace he is not known (which places are getting fewer and fewer these days) he will make sure the RO is comfortable with his draw.

There are two subtly different ways to perform the Cavalry twist. One can either rotate the wrist before the muzzle has totally cleared leather, allowing the shooter to draw straight like anybody els, or one can rotate the wrist after the gun has cleared leather and while the pistol is being raised, all the while pointed down range. I think the first method will probably make most ROs more comfortable.

[Professor Marvel]

My thanks to the Learned and Esteemed Citizens for their insight!

I am one those those individuals who will probably will not shoot outside of local clubs and never be particularly competitive in CAS. 

I am (like others here) in fact a refugee of BP  Rondys and re-enactments, and thus enjoy many of the other aspects of the game .
For some obscure reason I am most taken with option in this game of shooting a pistol in each hand ,  but the length of the 1851's  and 1858's
makes a normal "straight draw"  somewhat difficult for me. 

In order to ensure the Domestic Tranquility I will most certainly check in with the local RO's and the local Match Director as advised.

However, as suggested by the Esteemed Monsieur Johnston, I think I shall try modifying the draw to begin the Cavalry twist whilst still in the leather - with the long barrels, it should not be difficult, and keeping the RO's happy (and keeping safe) is always a good thing.

[Charlie Bowdre]

A thought to continue our never ending quest for information.

If you wear a brace of revolvers in a 'Hickok style ' ie back to front . AND you are shooting on a regular stage event . Can you use both your left and right hand to draw and fire in turn , in a sense use both left and right as a strong side  and opposite hand as the hammer hand.
I don't mean Duelist but using both hands supported.
Jees , I'm starting to confuse myself . It really is hard to communicate in this medium. Hope ya can fathom what I mean.

dutchie
Hope someone can answer this..feb.07th. dutchie

[Charlie Bowdre]

Any one???
dutchie

[Adirondack Jack]

I see nothing in the rules to prevent it.  The only two handed category ya can't do that in would be B Western, which has specific holster requirements. As above, if I was the RO, I'd want some heads up ahead of time, and a demonstration you could do it safely.

[Charlie Bowdre]

Thanks Jack , appreciate your reply. It is not something I am now doing , but I have looked at it and to be honest it is a little more comfortable . In essence I guess I would be shooting with a strong side right and left.
Thanks again
dutchie.

[Black Powder]

Bein' the visual learner I am, maybe if some of you with digital video cams can put together a video clip of the various accepted and safe methods of cross-draw, you could post it.  Please?

BP

[Charlie Bowdre]

Wish I could but I'm your original 'one dimensional ' guy..Besides I'm not ready to show everyone how I manage to scre% this up just yet!!

I watch all the videos on site and on others but a lot start just when the RO gives the golden throated command..

Dutchie.