Web Cartridge Belts?

[Fox Creek Kid]

Boot, I'll have to agree with you as well. All I've seen were all leather. Personally, I am of the belief that the name "Fair Weather Christian" is a parody of the term "fair weather friend", hence the obvious belt with cartridge loops infers one may well be a Christian but trusted other "measures" as well when faced with adversity.    Just my two cents. Of course, my opinion is worth just what you were charged. 

[Boot]

Which is very similar to what Sir Charles said.

Because these were the first cartridge belts they had no way of knowing about the verdigree problems caused by the leather to the cartridges.
If any were constructed usuing canvas loops it was most likely for convienience rather than anything else, but like you I've not seen any.

Boot.

[Uncle Stinky]

Alas poor Boot.....You're in hot water on my side of the pond too!

[ColonelFlashman]

Well isn't that the reason You came here asking questions from those of us that have had Years more Research experience than you? The British had been experiencing problems w/ Verdigris for years, as they were the first to use Cartridge Loops on leather belts. So your statement makes no sense what so ever.

Plus, I only stated that I used Dorsey as a reference for the Spelling "Fairweather-Christian", as It's how it's spelled in My copy of his book, not his single reference from a single source of an all leather constructed version & that the Canvass & Leather version of what I researched as the "Fairweather-Christian" belt is solely an invention of those named & constructed by Post Saddler Sgt.'s. Sorry but Dorsey is Just one source, a good one, but just because He's his version of the story, doesn't mean what I've found didn't happen.

So just because you've not Heard of or Seen one in Your limited research experience, doesn't mean that it's not out there in Museums & in numerous different Private Collections. And as I stated previously & You ignored, Do some actual White Cotton Gloved, Hands On research in some actual Research Libraries & Museums instead of taking the Lazy mans approach by attempting to pick apart the research of those that actually have. The Smithsonian & the U.S. Cavalry Museum should be your 1st places to start your research; it was mine, as well as others. And yes, by stating that "You do not believe me & Prove it", you've called me a liar.

And I will reiterate one of my Primary Sources outside of the Research Library's & Museums is Writer/Editor for "GUNDS & AMMO" Magazine, Phil S. & if you don't know who he is, you done even less research on the U.S. Army of the Victorian Era than I believe you have. As I stated previously he has a rather extensive Research Library in his home, has done research @ the Smithsonian, @ the Majority of the U.S. Army Military Museums throughout the U.S.

He also a extremely large collection of Original U.S. Military items from the Victorian Era & happens to Own, as I recall, two of the belts as I've described them, w/ stitched on Small Canvass Loops to a Sabre Belt & also has them listed as "Fairweather-Christian" cartridge belt after what he's found @ the Museums he's done research in. I've actually done more than have just spoken w/ him on the Phone, as I've actually been to his home & viewed both his personal Research Library & Victorian Era U.S. Military collection.

And as I stated previously, even if I were to list everything my research notes have in them, based on 1st hand accounts & those Published books of 1st hand accounts, I believe you'd still have the 'Tude of "I don't believe you & prove it", no matter what I presented to you.

So untill I've seen some contrition from you, I'll not be going out of my way to find it. First off, because of you lousy 'tude towards the statements I made here based on 30 + years of research. Second off, it's rather inconvenient because of how everything was packed into storage, it's 24' x 24' in measurement. I'd have to Completely un-pack the storage unit to find everything needed to get you to contract your "I don't believe you & prove it" statements. Which I still believe would Not be enough to satisfy you, no matter how much research & exacting sources I presented to you. So this will be the last time I'll be communicating w/ you untill you do the afore mentioned.

Good Day to you.

['Monterrey' Jack Brass]

Boots & friends,

The below references contain both civilian and military references. Perhaps they can add to the scholarly nature this thread has taken.

The first reference I have to Mills belts being sold in my Victorian era gun & related items catalog collection is on page 35 of the 1883 Hodgkins & Haigh Illustrated Catalogue and Price List: Guns, Rifles and Sporting Goods, New York. However, there is information below that supports Mills we belts being commercially available starting in 1881.

Regarding metal tubes on a cartridge belt to hold cartridges: This is a patented feature by the firm Pooler & Jones and it was called the 'Boss Cartridge Holder'. The earliest reference in my catalog collection is on page 11 of the 1879 Pribyl Bros, Importer and Jobber of Breech-Loading Guns: Rifles, Revolvers, Shooting Implements, Sporting Goods, Gun Powders, Shot, Traps catalog. These were sold in both belt and vest configurations and listed only for shotgun in the catalog description.

Pg 35, The U.S. Army in the West, 1870-1880 by Douglas C. McChristian: "Even though the leather cartridge box was often used on campaign, soldiers were quick to adopt the looped belts worn by civilian frontiersmen armed with metallic cartridge weapons. Known variously as thimble, fringed, prairie, or scouting belts, these were found among troops on the frontier as early as 1867. The men fabricated them by sewing forty to fifty leather or canvas loops on an issue belt or other piece of 'appropriated' leather."

Pg 216, The U.S. Army in the West, 1870-1880 by Douglas C. McChristian: Thimble or Prairie Cartridge Belts – "Field Fabricated cartridge belts took a variety of forms and were used by both soldiers and civilians on the frontier. Certain common features have been noted among examples with known or probable military provenance. The use of a cast-off army belt plate, either 1851 eagle plate or the 1839-pattern U.S. oval, was a distinctive feature of belts of military origin, although period photographs show many civilians wearing them as well."

Pg 227, American Military and Naval Belts 1812-1902 by Stephen Dorsey: "As Anson Mills noted in his autobiography, a version of the looped cartridge belt or 'scouting belt' had been unsuccessfully 'submitted to every equipment board organized between 1866 and 1879.' The apparent profusion and popularity of these unofficial 'scouting' or 'fair weather Christian belts' must have been somewhat of an embarrassment to the Ordnance Department and, finally, particularly after a cool reception of the Hazen Loops in the field, the inevitable was accepted."

Pg 373, American Military and Naval Belts 1812-1902 by Stephen Dorsey: "As early as the beginning of Mill's first military contract [for Mills belts and his patented weaving process that was formalized on 15 March 1881, not related to the M1876 web/leather combination type per pg 376-377], he was engaged in providing the commercial market with looped cartridge belts. Is decision to enter into a five-year contract with the Winchester Repeating Firearms Co to market his belts was a good one and gave his belts access to a broad market in the U.S. and overseas."

J.R. Logan – I am unable to find any references to the kind of belt you described in your post that kicked-off this thread. If I do find anything I'll let you know.

YMH&OS,

MJB

[Boot]

Thanks M.J.B.

Mr Flashman,
                 I fail to see why I have to suffer your constant abuse and insults, at no point have I been rude or abusive to yourself.
I have meerley questioned your statement as I would anyone else whom I didn't consider an authority.
I'm really not interested in how many times you've worn white gloves, and frankly I'm getting tired of hearing about it.

You've made several statement throughout this post which have for the most part turned out to be untrue or unstubstantiated.

You claimed; "Thimble belts" were created with spring clips - Not true (see M.J.B.s post)

You implied; "Fair Weather belts" were always constructed with canvas loops to avoid verdigree - Again not true

You further claimed that Fairweather & Christian were Army officers giving name to the belt - No evidence has come forward of either officer and Stephen Dorsey has refuted the theory.

Boot.

P.S.
I do know Phil Spangenburger, please give him my regards when you next speek with him.

['Monterrey' Jack Brass]

Fellows - I appreciate the fact that there has been some e-friction but this is likely just a mis-interpretation of an e-mail or two and nothing more. Truly, e-mail must be the most evil way of communication regarding anything intrapersonal. I am quite sure if we all were to meet there would be nothing but good will and interest in each other and friendship, and a welcome cup of coffee/whiskey by the cook fire. As we all share more interests and have more in common than not it is troublesome to see the e-mails where a perceived affront becomes actual in one's mind and for all the wrong reasons.

Sorry to be such a kumbayah sort of guy on this but I see very good people with minor disagreements (an not even real as they are generated in such a two-dimensional e-mail environment) becoming so divisive here. If e-mail is good for sharing data then perhaps that's all it should be used for, anything beyond that is hard to convey. In fact, I am sure that even my e-mail here will be interpreted. Catch 22.

I respect that there have been affronts made but over what started them is all I ask to be considered. Perhaps all the things that have followed can be forgotten after consideration of how it all started. Thanks for your consideration and listening to my thoughts on the issue.

YMH&OS,

MJB

[St. George]

OK - enough...

This thread started about a piece of what would be best described as 'competition' gear.

It was answered several times and answered well - with good references given, should someone so desire to actually buy or obtain and read the material.

It's getting contentious, now - and I won't have that - especially since the 'web belt' question has been gone over before - on a couple of forums.

Settle down - go have a cup of coffee, and find something to contribute besides acrimony.

Scouts Out!

[James Hunt]

Brass: Excellent post and information as ALWAYS! Lord, is reference material great or what!! I think you pretty much put this puppy to bed, but you said "Sorry to be such a kumbayah sort of guy". My, my you are getting gentle in your advancing years ; .

Col. Flashman: The etiology of the Fairweather or Fair Weather - Christian belt nomenclature is interesting. Meaning no disrespect to Phil S. and with a contrite attitude in advance for any real or imagined inference regarding your voracity, I would be interested in that source of which you speak. At your leisure of course.