Sam Browne, Baldric, Sword Hanger, et. al.

[Will Dearborn]

Howdy. 

Okay... here's a question for ya:

In my shopping, searching, researching I've run across a few different pieces of equipment that I'm curious about.  During the Civil War (so various sutlers would have me believe) NCOs - who carried a sword and a musket?  although I think pistols would be more appropriate, given that in the NCOs manual of the period it states that NCOs were required to shoot anyone fleeing from the battle line and one shot would surely NOT be enough for that job or the aftermath-wore the cartridge box on the belt (that's the reason for the belt loops on the back of it, appearently) and then wore a baldric across the chest.  WIth an eagle plate attached.  Seems correct.  BUT... then I see Sam Browne belts offered as Civil War period.  Seems, again, probable as Capt. Browne invented the thing around that time due to a wounding in 1858. 

Of course... if an NCO is carrying pistols and a sabre... why would be carry a .58 cal cartridge box I don't know.  Seems it would be a pistol cartridge box.  (Another question:  DId the pistol box have a US plate attached or was it just left plain?)

Did the US Army use then so soon after it being used by a single man in a far away country?  And how prevalent were they?

Secondly... belt buckles.  I see round, two piece buckles on officers.  (There is a picture of Thomas Meagher of the Fighting 69th wearing one early in the war.)  I see eagle buckles.  Eagle buckles with silver accents.  US plates.  My take is that NCOs wore a plain, two-piece eagle buckle.  Or, maybe even the US buckle... as supply and pay were probably slower than promotions... especially in a fighting unit.  Same for the darker 1 1/2 tape on the leg seams for NCOs.  Seems it would be easier to get ANY sky-blue pants as opposed to correct, ranked ones.

*pant*

Okay... so it's more than two questions...  but I'm curious.  I hate when I get all dressed up and then the other kids throw rocks at me and laugh.

Long days and pleasant nights,
Sgt. Will Dearborn
Somewhere in Missouri

[St. George]

The Infantry NCO and the soldier carried a rifle cartridge pouch and cap pouch supported by the waist belt and the shoulder strap.

They were armed with the rifle and bayonet, and were issued both an oval 'US' plate, a circular 'Eagle' shoulder belt plate and usually an oval 'US' cartridge box plate - though late-war cartridge pouch flaps sometimes were embossed with the 'US'.

If armed with the Model 1832 Sword, an NCO was issued the Model 1851 belt plate - the use of the sword was largely decorative by mid-war, with most opting for a rifle.

Cavalrymen had a carbine, revolver and saber, and were issued the M1851 Belt plate for their waist belt - along with appropriate pouches for their weapons.

The Sam Browne belt wouldn't see real popularity until American Officers serving overseas with the AEF adopted them during WWI.

Any non-standard belt plates were most likely pre-war Militia plates - some would wear them during their wartime service, while others opted for the newest equipment then in issue.

You might want to read Lord's 'Civil War Collector's Encyclopedia' - it's a five volume set.

Meanwhile, you can review this:

St George's Notes XXXI - 'Model 1851 Belt Plate'...
« on: December 08, 2006, 10:20:02 AM »     

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Perhaps one of the most attractive belt plates ever issued by the Army was/is the rectangular Model 1851.

In use for over 100 years with very little modification, and was initially issued to Union Cavalry troopers and those soldiers armed with the sword.

As such - they're fairly common, with only the oval belt plate of the Infantry being seen more often.

The plate with the applied silver wreath is Government-Issue and could be worn by all, while the all-gilt finish was private-purchase for Officers, since they bought their own uniforms and accouterments, and could be selective.

That many Officers chose the issue plate is testament to not only its beauty, but to common sense and frugality, as well.

Uniforms weren't cheap - and pay scales weren't lavish - so buying sturdy equipment from the Quartermaster stretched a dollar.

There are a number of ideas as to the dating of these plates - so here's how...

The difference between Civil War and Indian War issued plates is the tongue.

Early Civil War plates have a tongue that's narrow and fits a corresponding keeper, while the later-issued  plates features a much wider tongue arrangement and both plate and keeper are visible when fastened.

The plate as described and issued in compliance with the Army Regulations of 1872 to the present has a wide tongue with a 'rectangular loop' keeper that's effectively hidden when closed.

The Army Regulations of 1876 specified its use by Officers, as  the Enlisted men had the rectangular Model 1874 Belt Plate by that time.

Incidentally - the Marine Corps use the identical arrangement for Officers and NCOs with a notable exception - the Eagle and Wreath are in silver.

Were older-issued plates purchased and used?

Of course they were - but mostly by older Officers with earlier Service, since a newly-minted shavetail graduating from Hudson High would buy the newest available.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[Will Dearborn]

 

THANK YOU!  I feel much more smarterish now. 

I can more forward with confidence and at least some reference.  I'll check that book set out as soon as I can beg/borrow/steal/buy a copy.  Thanks again for the info.

Long days and pleasant nights,
Will

[Dr. Bob]

Will,

Check your local library.  Might be in the reference section, but they may have it to use FREE.   Good searching!

[Will Dearborn]

Heh.  My local library in a town of 500 still has McGuffey's Reader listed as a "New Arrival".  I once searched the novels section and the newest volume was by some lady named Harry Beecher Stove or something. 

I'm joking... they don't do too bad for a rural library on a budget of hundreds of dollars a year, but a 5 volume set is probably WAY beyond them.

I might go to Harrisonville soon, though.  THey have a good historical society housed in their library and the Mo-Kan Border Wars group I'm part of meets there.  I'll just make a day of it and tote home a hundred lbs. of copied stuff. 

Long days and pleasant nights,
Will

[St. George]

Lord initially wrote 'The Civil War Collector's Encyclopedia' as a single volume - and as such, it saw a wide distribution.

It later expanded into five volumes as more artifacts were found and documented - and can be found in a two-book set.

You can order it through your Public Library as an Inter-Library Loan - provided you're willing to pay postage.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[Grapeshot]

Howdy.  

Okay... here's a question for ya:

In my shopping, searching, researching I've run across a few different pieces of equipment that I'm curious about.  During the Civil War (so various sutlers would have me believe) NCOs - who carried a sword and a musket?  although I think pistols would be more appropriate, given that in the NCOs manual of the period it states that NCOs were required to shoot anyone fleeing from the battle line and one shot would surely NOT be enough for that job or the aftermath-wore the cartridge box on the belt (that's the reason for the belt loops on the back of it, appearently) and then wore a baldric across the chest.  WIth an eagle plate attached.  Seems correct.  BUT... then I see Sam Browne belts offered as Civil War period.  Seems, again, probable as Capt. Browne invented the thing around that time due to a wounding in 1858.  

Of course... if an NCO is carrying pistols and a sabre... why would be carry a .58 cal cartridge box I don't know.  Seems it would be a pistol cartridge box.  (Another question:  DId the pistol box have a US plate attached or was it just left plain?)

Did the US Army use then so soon after it being used by a single man in a far away country?  And how prevalent were they?[/size]

OK, First off, NCO's of Infantry and Non Mounted Services wore a STRAIGHT bladed SWORD, Model M1840 that was worn off a hanger that was on the end of a balderic that came equipped with a circular eagle plate that acted like a buckle to adjust the balderic to the wearer.  This same sword was also used up until 1906 and worn with a frog that slid onto the waistbelt of the period with the rectanular US buckle.

Cavalry and Light, or Horse Artillery, wore a sabre and belt equiped with a strap that went from the center of the sabre belt up over the right shoulder and hooked just above the sabre ring on the left hip.  Carbine and pistol ammo were carried in cartridge boxes attached to the belt with loops behind the pouch.  The oval box plate was worn on the Rifle Cartridge Box until the Arsenals began embossing "US" on them in an effort to cut costs.

[ColonelFlashman]

General Sir Samuel James Browne VC GCB KCSI (3 October 1824 - 14 March 1901) was a British Army cavalry officer in India and the Near East, best known today as the namesake of the Sam Browne belt.

He was born in Barrackpore, India, the son of Dr. John Browne, a surgeon in the Bengal Medical Service and his wife Charlotte (née Swinton). Browne joined the 46th Bengal Native Infantry as a subaltern, participating in action at Ramnuggar, Sadoolapore, Chillianwalla and Gujarat. In 1849 he was made a lieutenant and tasked with raising a cavalry force, to be designated the 2nd Punjab Irregular Cavalry and later incorporated into the regular force. He would command this unit for the next five years. Later (1904) the unit would be re-designated as the 22nd Sam Browne's Cavalry (Frontier Force) in his honour.

Browne led the 2nd Punjab in several engagements, and was decorated for action during the Bozdar Expedition in 1857, being promoted to captain. Browne won the Victoria Cross on 31 August 1858 at Seerporah, India. In an engagement with the rebels, Captain Browne, whilst advancing upon the enemy's position, pushed on with one orderly sowar upon a 9-pounder gun and attacked the gunners, preventing them from re-loading and attacking the infantry who were advancing to the attack. In the conflict which ensued, Captain Browne received two sword cuts, one on the left knee and one which severed his left arm at the shoulder, but not before he had cut down one of his assailants. The gun was eventually captured and the gunner killed.

Sometime after this incident he began to wear the accoutrement which bears his name, as compensation for the difficulty his disability caused with wearing his officer's sword. Later the wearing of the Sam Browne belt would be adopted by other officers who knew Browne in India, but it was not to come into common use in the British Army until after his retirement. Browne's original belt is now on public display in the India Room of the Royal Military Academy, Sandhurst.

In 1878, as commander of the Peshawar Field Force during the Second Afghan War Browne brought 16,000 troops and 48 guns to the Khyber Pass, capturing the key fortress of Ali Masjid, which commanded its entry, and afterward proceeding through the pass and capturing Jalalabad. Browne was made a Knight Commander of the Order of the Bath for this action.

Browne was promoted to general in 1888, and awarded the Order of the Bath's Grand Cross in 1891. He retired from the army in 1898, relocated to Ryde on the Isle of Wight, England and died there at the age of 74. His remains were cremated but there is a memorial marker dedicated to Browne in the Ryde Town Cemetery, as well as plaques at St Paul's Cathedral and Lahore Cathedral.

[Dr. Bob]

Hey Col. F.,

Thanks for the history lesson!  I wear one when I wear my WWI uniform while I volunteer at the National WWI Museum at the Liberty Memorial here in Kansas City.

At the end of the war, the community decided that they want to build a memorial to those who lost their lives from KC.  In about 3 months, they raised $2.2 million and in 1921 purchased land just south of the Union Station.  On Nov. 1 1921 the 5 Allied commanders were present for the site dedication.  The only time that they were all together in one place and one time.  The Memorial was dedicated on Armistice Day of 1926.  There were 2 small museum structures on either side of the 217 foot tower. 

In the mid 1990's there was a vote and a major renovation of the original structure was begun.  Some private money was raised and the City provided some and a state of the art museum was constructed in a part of the storage area.  It opened on December 2, 2006.  Approx. 8% of the collection is on exhibit.  Lots of the 92% remaining is document in the archive and duplicates of items on exhibit.  At the end of 2007 the Museum was able to purchase a Renault FT17 light tank that had been hit by a German 75mm shell.  It has the 37mm cannon.  It is an early production model with the large driving wheels in front made out of wood.  We hope that it will go on exhibit in late March or April.  The exhibit contractor has to prepare the signage and move some some items to place it on the floor.  There was a large garage door put in the wall behind where it will sit and the panel is hinged to allow the placement.  On the wall behind it is General Pershing's 4 star Flag!  And in a case 15 feet away is our Mod. J17 Harley Davidson motorcycle.  If you get to KC, it is a don't miss museum.  I spent 4+ hours the first day.  That was just looking into the cases and reading most of the item descriptions.

It has been designate the National WWI Museum by Congress.  I volunteer there and am really proud of what we have!

[Charlie Bowdre]

Dr. Bob
Sounds like a great project . Could you post any photos?
Thanks
Dutchie

[Charlie Bowdre]

ColonelFlashman
Thanks for the information on the Sam Browne. Great piece of historical background
Thanks
Dutchie

[Dr. Bob]

Howdy Dutchie,

Here is a link to the web site which has pictures and more.

         www.libertymemorialmuseum.org

Actually, since I go there on average once a week, I haven't taken any pictures.  My bad!

[Charlie Bowdre]

Dr. Bob
What a great site , you can be very proud to Volunteer at this venue, Thanks for the information ,. great displays and obviously a well supported site.

Thanks again.

Dutchie