Brass Frame conversion cylinders

[Colt Fanning]

I have a Model 1851 brass frame.  The conversion cylinder companies state that their conversions are not for the brass frame model.  Is this because of the danger of an excessive load or is the cylinder in the brass frame models shorter so that the conversion cylinder won't go in the gun?  Maybe the installation of the conversion cylinder weakens the frame.  Has anyone successfully put a conversion cylinder in a brass frame 1851 Pietta?
Regards
Colt

[Flint]

Conversion to cartridge results in higher pressures, and a heavier, usually harder bullet.  The bullet hits the forcing cone much harder than a roundball, and the force is trying to drive the barrel forward off the gun.  The wedge ties the barrel to the frame through the arbor, and since the arbor on the Colt is screwed into the frame, the force transmits to the threads, which are in brass, and the force will stretch and hammer the threads and loosen the cylinder arbor.   On the brass frame, this will happen eventually even with cap & ball loads.  Most brass framed guns should be used as wall hangers, and after shooting a lot, will end up that way.

Best to use a steel framed gun, and keep to "Cowboy" pressure loads.  The Navy uses a hollow base bullet to fill the .375 bore, and my steel framed guns are still tight after some dozens of matches.  Even the Remington will suffer frame stretching from Cartridge loads, so use a steel framed Remington as well.

[Dick Dastardly]

My good friend, Walt Kirst, makes very fine conversion cylinders.  He won't, knowingly, make them or sell them for brass framed guns.

That said, if the pressure, bullet fit and relative hardness were the same, brass frame guns could use conversion cylinders.  But, and this is a big but. . .  Sooner or later somebody could put in some stronger loads and the gun could fail with dangerous results.

So, even though you might never do it, don't put conversion cylinders in brass frame guns even if they fit and function.

DD-DLoS

[Dakota Widowmaker]

Well... lets see...

Officially, DON'T DO IT!!!

But, un-officially, I have helped a good friend do it with his ASM 1860 colt clone. He has one brass and one steel framed gun.

We tested them out with 250gr CAS bullets loaded with 5.2gr of Trailboss at 1.570" OAL and he has had ZERO issues. ALOT less pressure and kick than 30gr Pyrodex pellets and 44cal round ball.

Now, I helped him load up 250rds of ammo, each one measured precisely with the Lyman DPS II and such...

Brass frame stretching and stuff aside, which I have yet to see, both guns function 100% the same either way. We just had to make a custom wedge for his guns like we did for mine.

His 1860s are equally accurate...

[Deadeye Don]

I would follow DD advice.  If you dont,  please dont try to sue Kirst or RandD.  They warned ya.   

[Dick Dastardly]

My concern isn't the immediate, it's further on downstream.  Assuming good fit and function, the conversion cylinder may work great.  The thing is, you are manufacturing a gun when you add the conversion cylinder.  Are you manufacturing a gun that is proof tested for the loads it can chamber?

Some day in another context I can see some less informed individual getting his hands on the rig and putting SAAMI factory ammo into it and banging away.  Ooops, blown gun, injury or death.  You are the manufacturer.

DD-DLoS

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

I completely agree with Flint's statements. In fact I will add a comment that use of a cartridge in a conversion cylinder also increases recoil pounding against the recoil shield in any gun over the pounding a C&B charge develops. Brass cases hold crimped bullets more securely than the friction of the narrow bullet to chamber fit of a round ball, and a bullet shaped object always weighs more than a round ball of the same diameter. Couple those two facts together and recoil will always be higher with the same powder charge in a cartridge case with a bullet than with a round ball and the same powder charge. This means increased force of recoil backwards, and with a Colt style revolver, inertia makes the barrel want to stand still while the frame is thrust back by recoil. This results in increased stress on the arbor where it is fitted to the frame.

Dakota Widowmaker: Come to my house someday and I'll show you my old Navy Arms brass framed 44 cal C&B. I bought it in 1968 because as an 18 year old kid I could not afford steel framed one. After many years of 30 grain charges the barrel now points up and it shoots about 12" high at 25 feet. Whether the frame stretched, or the arbor moved, it is now a wall hanger.

Heed the warnings of the manufacturers. Brass framed pistols are a little bit cheaper than steel framed. Buy a steel frame if you want to use a conversion cylinder in it.

[Colt Fanning]

Howdy,
Thanks for all the good info.  I guess I will just stay with C&B in these guns.
Thanks agin pards
Colt

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Howdy,
Thanks for all the good info. I guess I will just stay with C&B in these guns.
Thanks agin pards
Colt

Ya won't be sorry!

[Dalton Masterson]

I had a major malfunction in my first brass framed 51 using loose powder and ball. Cylinder stop spring must have broke, which allowed the cylinder to overrotate just slightly. The gun still fired, but the ball hit the side of the barrel, instead of into the forcing cone. Ripped the arbor right out of the frame. Was a pretty new gun, with maybe 200 rounds thru it. Turned into parts for my STEEL framed guns.
I cannot recommend ripping an arbor out of a brass framed gun by using a conversion.

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Wow!

Dalton, I hope you're no worse for the wear! 

[Dakota Widowmaker]

The wedge ties the barrel to the frame through the arbor, and since the arbor on the Colt is screwed into the frame, the force transmits to the threads, which are in brass, and the force will stretch and hammer the threads and loosen the cylinder arbor.   On the brass frame, this will happen eventually even with cap & ball loads.  Most brass framed guns should be used as wall hangers, and after shooting a lot, will end up that way.

Flint, I have to disagree with you 100% on what you wrote above.

I know of a shooter who all he could afford were brass 1860 Traditions guns and that is what he shoots. They were lightly used when he got them but he has put 2 whole seasons through them. He uses 24gr of GOEX FFFg and home case Lee round balls. (we sat down at his place and we cast up a few hundred one weekend along with some other stuff)

We measured the cylinder gap at .006 then and now and its the same.

To tell him his guns are only good for wall hangers would be an insult... they work well and he has no problems shooting them.

Now, my pall also has a conversion cylinder that we got installed and they do work. Really light loads with TrailBoss is what he uses for indoor range sessions this winter. (he liked mine so much, he had me help him with his)

Brass frames are not "junk", but, are often treated as such by those that don't take care of their toys.

[Dalton Masterson]

SHB, No worse for wear. I still have the target I was shooting at, and it got little pepper marks in it and a funny hole, but the gun just came apart for the most part. No missing digits or nothing. DM

[Driftwood Johnson]

Dakota Widdowmaker

Re read my comments. We won't get into derogatory comments like who takes care of their guns and who doesn't. When I bought my old brass framed Navy 44 in 1968 I was just a kid and could not afford a steel frame. If memory serves, it cost me $40. Nobody said anything in those days about shooting reduced charges in brass framed C&B revolvers, so my load was 30 grains of powder behind a 44 cal ball. No, I don't remember exactly what size the ball was, but they shaved off a nice ring when I pressed them into the chambers.

A few years ago, I finally realized, when it was shooting about 12" high at 25 feet, that years of 30 grain charges had been too much for it. Whether the slot in the arbor stretched, or whether the arbor has moved in the frame, the barrel now points up, and it is a wall hanger.

Here is a photo of my old Brass framed 44 Navy. You can't really tell from this photo that the barrel points up, but it becomes obvious when you sight it.




When the wedge is snugged down and the barrel contacts the frame, the barrel/cylinder gap is now about .014. Here is a photo with a .014 shim in place. I can close the barrel cylinder gap down by driving the wedge in further, but that is what causes the barrel to point up. The gap was not .014 when I bought it. There is no question that something has moved, probably the arbor, from all those years of 30 grain charges.



A cartridge with a good crimp and a cylindrical bullet will develop more recoil and stress on the arbor than a round ball in the chamber. You cannot get around the physics of that. Do whatever you think is best, the manufacturers of conversion cylinders are not kidding when they say not to put their cylinders in brass framed guns. Even light loads of Trailboss will develop more pressure and recoil than a light load of Black Powder.

[Dakota Widowmaker]

Dakota Widdowmaker

Re read my comments.

I did and you said yours was a wall hanger... I guess I had read it to imply that ALL brass frame guns should be considered wall hangers.

I stand corrected.

Even light loads of Trailboss will develop more pressure and recoil than a light load of Black Powder.

Apples and oranges comparison.

From the IMR website, Trail Boss
250gr bullet
45LC case
4.5grTrailBoss
606 fps
8,800 PSI

From the Hodgdon website, Pyrodex
45 Colt
250 RFNP
30gr
787 fps
9,900 psi

Now, I thought I read somewhere that a 44cal rem (similar but not the same) with 30gr of BP and a 454ball makes about 9000psi of pressure in the cylinders.

I don't doubt that frame or arbor stretch can occur. But, I have to disagree with the notion that a light load of smokeless is more detrimental than a light load of BP.

[Flint]

Dakota Widowmaker:

Reread Dalton Masterson's experience with an out of time unlocked brass framed 1851 revolver ripping the arbor out of the gun.  I personally have fired multi-chamber discharges, in (original) Remington, (original) Starr and (Repro) Colt 60 Army, none came apart with 3 chambers firing, the side two smearing lead down the frame/barrel.  I won't shoot a brass frame anymore, as the one I had, and a few friend's were all loose after shooting a year or so as a cap & ball. These were 36 Navies, which would have a lot less stress than a 44..

[Dalton Masterson]

Yes, forgot to add, mine was a 44. There were absolutely no threads left in the frame for the arbor to screw into. Also the barrel wedge was mashed and the barrel wedge slot was elongated some.
The next one I got was a Remmy, then many STEEL framed ones. Its nice insurance that it will last, even for the extra cost. DM