Exciting New Discovery

Gripmaker · October 13, 2007, 07:06:28 PM

Don't know how many of you knew this but I stumbled upon the fact that one can shoot 44 Russians in 44-40 chambered guns as well as the 44 SPL and Mag. Now I don't have to worry when I run out of 44-40s as long as I have some Russians on hand.
Discovered years ago that a 44 Mag will also handle 44 Russian, 44 Colt and 44 Spls. That is why 44 RULES!

Pettifogger · October 13, 2007, 08:15:34 PM

You most assuredly cannot fire .44 mag out of a .44-40 and its a bad plan to shoot any straight case .44s out of a .44-40. People that suggest this don't know what they are talking about and it can be dangerous to fire a high pressure round like a .44 Mag out of a .44-40. The .44-40 is a bottleneck case and the chamber is to large for any other caliber to be safely fired out of it.

Halfway Creek Charlie · October 13, 2007, 08:25:35 PM

I have an idea that gripmaker's cylinders are drilled straight through, and........44-40 cases are the same as 44 spcl, Russian and 44mag , dia's are almost exactly the same. (that would be the larger dia of the 44-40 case. All of the modern 44's use a .429 bullet.
I would never shoot a 44 mag(smokeless) cartridge in a 44-40 or any other firearm except a 44 Mag firearm....That being said, i do load Bp in 44 Mag cases and use heeled 210 Gen bullets in them and sometines(if the cylinder is long enough) the 248 Grn Old West Mould heeled bullet in my Remy Conversions and my 1860 henry Rifle. I do check to see the the OAl is the same as the 45LC that was what the Henry was chambered for, now that it's converted to 44 Rem/Colt C.F. BTW the 44 mag brass and the OWM 248 Grn Bullet approximates the 46 Rem. R.F. cartridge that the Remy Conversion's were first chambered in.

Abilene · October 13, 2007, 08:55:06 PM

Charlie, you may be getting your cartridges mixed up. First of all, I can't imagine any 44-40 cylinder having the cylinders drilled straight through. That way the mouth of the cylinder would be way-oversized for the bullet. And the mouths of the 44-40 brass may be close to the same diameter as the straight wall .44's (Russian, Colt, Spcl, etc.) but the rear of the case is larger.

I measured the diameter of a 44 Russian case at about .4515, and the diameter of the lower part of a 44-40 case is .461. These were fired cases, so a sized case may be a hair different, but the Russian case is still too small. Yes, it will chamber and yes it will fire because the firing pin will still hit pretty close to center, but since the Russian round is loose in the cylinder the bullet will not be centered as it hits the narrower mouth of the cylinder hole. This can't be good for accuracy. It will also bulge the brass as it tries to fill the larger diameter of the cylinder, and I would imagine it would tend to leave lead deposits in the narrower front of the cylinder chamber that would make it difficult to chamber a 44-40 later. I can't say what the pressure situation would be that Pettifogger was talking about. I know that if it was an emergency then heck yeah I'd fire a Russian in a 44-40, but not otherwise.

On the other hand, I do know of one pard who was shooting 44 Russians in a 44-40 Henry, but I think he was fireforming the cases first so they would be centered in the chamber. If he was not fireforming the cases, then I could be wrong on some of my assumptions above but it would still bulge the cases and I wouldn't try it.

I once accidently loaded and fired .44 Spcl in a .45 Colt SAA, and actually hit the targets. Didn't discover the problem until I unloaded the guns and saw the bulged brass. But in that situation the mouth of the cylinder was still much larger than the .429 bullet, as was the bore. It was a low-pressure situation that posed no danger, just poor accuracy and ruined brass.

Disclaimer: I'm not a gunsmith. Just my opinion.

Hope that helps.

p.s. Gripmaker, despite the problems doing what you suggest, you are correct that .44 RULES!

Gripmaker · October 13, 2007, 10:35:24 PM

WHOA Guys! Re-read the post. I did not say that a 44 mag could be shot in a 44-40 cylinder. What i said was that a 44 Russian could be shot in a 44-40 cylinder (because case length is short enough) and it can be done safely. The 44 Russian (being straight cased) can also be shot in a 44 mag cylinder right along with the 44 Colt and 44 Spl. You can't even chamber a 44 Mag in a 44-40 cylinder (I tried and she won't go in a normally chambered cylinder).

I probably didn't word it succinctly enough for some but each of these scenarios is perfectly safe. Sorry about the vagueness of my post. But, hey, it got some thinking.

Pettifogger · October 13, 2007, 10:37:16 PM

"I have an idea that gripmaker's cylinders are drilled straight through, and........44-40 cases are the same as 44 spcl, Russian and 44mag , dia's are almost exactly the same. (that would be the larger dia of the 44-40 case. All of the modern 44's use a .429 bullet."

.44-40 chambers are never drilled straight through. .44-40 cases bear no resemblance to .44 Special, Russian or .44 Mag. It is true that they all shoot .429 bullets. However, that is about like saying that you can fire .30 Carbine, .30-30, and .308 Winchester out of a .30-06 because they all use .308 bullets. Max spec for a .44-40 is .471 at the base. Max for the straight wall .44's is .457. Some uninformed people get away with using straight wall cases because the .44-40 is tapered and measures .457 at its shoulder. This will center the rounds enough so that they will fire, but it ain't a smart thing to do. Why do you think the factories make revolvers with two cylinders, one in .44 Special and one in .44-40? Why do you NEVER see a factory rifle marked .44-40/.44 Special? Just because they are the same caliber doesn't mean they are the same or interchangeable.

Gripmaker · October 13, 2007, 11:03:14 PM

Pettifogger, You are correct in what you are saying and everyone here knows it. However I did not post this to get anyone's shorts in a bunch, merely to inform of a situation that could be done in a pinch or emergency. None of the straight walled 44 cartridges will even chamber in the 44-40 except the 44 Russian and it can be fired safely in said pinch or emergency due to its short length. As far as bulging the case, I have as yet to see a 44-40 case that measures past .461 in a modern chambered firearm. No one goes larger than that anymore due to SAMMI specs and because the Italians don't usually go larger than that with their chambers.. Also the low pressure of the 44 Russian makes it possible , again in said pinch or emergency, without bulging the cases enough to be of concern because of their web thickness .

Now, before anyone starts in on the use of "older" firearms...THIS IS NOT A RECOMMENDED PRACTICE IN ANY 44-40 FIREARMS.

Halfway Creek Charlie · October 13, 2007, 11:30:13 PM

Well I went to my loading table after I posted my post to check to see if my 44-40's, 44 Spcl, 44 Mag, and 44 Russians would chamber in my Original Remy 44 C.F. conversions(being straight through bored) and they will all chamber in these cylinders. These are BP rounds with .451 Dia heeled bullets(except the 44-40 bullets, which are the normal .428-.429 Nom. bullets) I would never shoot the 44-40's in my 44 C.F.'s but like Gripmaker, it could be done in a pinch but likely would not be very accurate due to the bullet bouncing down the bbl. This only works because of the long cylinders in these two pistols (both were 46 R.F. conversions first, then converted to 44 C.F later. The Remy's could chamber both the 46 R.F. Cartridge and the 44 C.F. cartridge as well as the brass was almost identical in dimensions, the 46 Cal being undersized, and the 44 being over sized. These took the 46 Remington R.F and would chamber the 46 Remington Carbine R.F. as well.

The 44 Spcl brass and the Old West Mould 248 Grn heeled bullet actually approximates the 46 Rem. R.F. (in C.F. Form).

I understand where Gripmaker was coming from and the fact that the 44 Russian brass is shorter than the length of the larger case size of the 44-40 brass. I wouldn't want to do it either, but it's a good thing to know.....if your life depended on it.

Adirondack Jack · October 13, 2007, 11:58:58 PM

If ya look at the cartidge dimensions here: http://stevespages.com/page8d.htm yopu will see what he's talking about. the ,44 russian will fit, but will end up fire formed and fat at the base (if it doesn't split).

Psst: .44 specials can be made into .44-40 shorts using .44-40 dies

Gripmaker · October 14, 2007, 08:27:47 AM

Jack, You can also turn 44 mag cases into 44-40 IF you want to turn (read that THIN) the inside of the case neck to accomodate 427 bullets after you form the case with the appropriate sizing/decapping die. Otherwise the bullet would have to be so small that shooting it would be like a BB rolling around inside of a boxcar.

REMEMBER ALL: There are many things that can be done BUT is it safe, wise, right or expedient. The answer is always yours as well as the resultant consequences.

Halfway Creek Charlie · October 14, 2007, 11:28:07 AM

Gripmaker is right, whenI got my first 1873 Winchester Original, I didn't have any 44-40 brass, but I had scads of 44 Rem Mag brass left over from my Metallic Sillywet days. I formed them in a 44-40 die and thinned the necks. they worked ok but never as good as the 44-40 brass. That is also when i found out how picky these rifles are with the 44-40 rounds, Boy they have to right on OAL and CRIMPED right to feed and not jam. I'll take my straight cased 44's ove the 44-40 any day of the week....blowby or not!