1858 Rem , revisited

[Marshal Deadwood]

Let me see if I understand this...

There, historically, was a conversion cylinder for the 1858 Rems that was like the R and D...'capped' cylinder with floating firing pins ?

And, the R and D would be the most efficent way to used a converter in a blackpowder '58 ?

If you used the Krist,,would you not have to modify the frame for the ejection of spent brass thur the shell gate ?

Im a wee bit confused here guys,,,

Marshal Deadwood

[Dusty Morningwood]

You would have to grind out the frame to eject cartridges with the Kirst.  And yes, there were period Remington conversions with five or six floating firing pins in the "cap".  But I have seen the same conversion for an 1860 Colt.

[River City John]

I'm not sure if R&D makes a gated cylinder, but only the gated Kirst needs to have the capping channel ground out to load/unload from the rear of the cylinder. Otherwise the standard R&D and the Kirst are identical in operation. You pull the cylinder pin, take the cylinder out and seperate the rear piece that holds the firing pin(s), dump your empties and reload, replace the cylinder back piece and return the unit back into the frame and push the cylinder pin back home.

It is easier to do than descrbe with a little practice. I usually hook my pinkie through the frame and let it dangle while using both hands to complete the process. Most of the time the empty casings will fly out if you kinda snap your wrist down towards the ground. For sticky cases I have a brass skeleton key on a thong that I have ground off the part that engages the tumblers.

[Marshal Deadwood]

How , if im getting this right. ....The R and D and Kirist function the same. Neither are 'gated conversions?'

One would only need frame modification if using a cylinder that ejected while remaing in the frame ? Of which neither the R and D or Kirist are designed ?

Am I close on the cartridge deal for a '58 Rem?

Marshal Deadwood

[River City John]

If you're using a gated Kirst cylinder then the cylinder is left in the revolver and loaded/unloaded from the rear. So yes, you'd have to cut a channel to allow the cases to slide in and out. The confusion might rest with the fact that Kirst offers two types of backing plates, gated and not gated.

The standard Kirst and the R&D both have a solid backing plate that holds the firing pin (Kirst), and pins (R&D) which you seperate from the cylinder body to load/unload. The cylinder must be removed from the revolver frame. If you're using this type of conversion cylinder there is no need to alter the frame at all.

[Marshal Deadwood]

AYE ! River City John, thank you. I see the be-devilment now. I was un-awares Kirist had both gated and the R and D type.

Think i'v got it now.

Instead of altering the frame of my '58...if I go conversion, I shall go with the R and D type.

Thank you

Marshal Deadwood

[River City John]

AYE ! River City John, thank you. I see the be-devilment now. I was un-awares Kirist had both gated and the R and D type.

Think i'v got it now.

Instead of altering the frame of my '58...if I go conversion, I shall go with the R and D type.

Thank you

Marshal Deadwood

Well, while Kirst does make a gated and non-gated, their system uses a single firing pin in the backing plate. Just  R&D's has the six pins.


In case you're curious, both types are NCOWS approved and both types have historical counterparts. You've seen examples of the R&D type, I'm sure.
If you ever get ahold of the three volume boxed set "The Wild West"(ISBN 1 84065 168 7), in the volume entitled "The American Frontier" on page 166 there is a Starr single action conversion that is a Kirst-type with the thicker recoil plate from the Buffalo Bill Historical Center in Cody, WY.


I have operated both and I prefer the Kirst for one reason. You can see the cartridge bases from the side when it is loaded. Mine is a non-gated recoil plate, and I have often thought about buying a gated plate, but just don't want to alter the revolver. Individual preference.

RCJ

[Marshal Deadwood]

River City,,,,the Rems I thought for a long time were just 'butt ugly',,but,,they do tend to grow on ya.

I got  a '58 from Taylors,,forged frame,,and its a rather handsome gun in person. The orignial prob I 'thought' i had, was just how they rotate and work..so says the gunsmith guy.....

It's sure different than a Colt ! ,,but in  a nice way...they are unique i think,,and this one shoots rather awesome !

I think I shall really like this revolver.


Marshal Deadwood

[Marshal Will Wingam]

Uh-huh! Another one hooked. 

[Halfway Creek Charlie]

The new made R & D also have the ports cut in the chambers to see the rims portions of the loaded cylinders.
I use One R & D in 44 Rem'Colt 44 C.F. for an original conversion that didn't have a recoil plate and the headspace is too great, So I bought the 44 Rem. Conversion from Buffalo Arms and it dropped in like it was made for this 143 yr old Revolver.

I went with the 44 Rem. Conversion cylinder for two reasons, one it was a 6 shot(Kirst), and I wanted a cartridge that was as close to the original 44 C.F. for Colts and Remy conversions as I could get. I then Found that R & D produced a conversion cylinder in this configuration and I went with that because of the 6 firing pins and that they are replaceable as are the ferrules that hold them in the plate. Kirst's firing pin is staked in place last I knew.

A word of HEADS UP though, R & D's will not "drop-in" the original Transition New Model Army unless you take two threads off the breech to align with the cylinder pin frame. Or the same dimension is taken off the face of the cylinder.

[Flint]

This is the unported, ungated Kirst.

http://www.kirstkonverter.com/safety.html

I prefer the R&D converter in 45 caliber, and I have both, I've never been happy with the strange, irregular spacing of the Kirst rachet to produce the 5 shot with a safety position and the lack of smoothness that produces.  The Kirst is also a lot harder on the soft Italian hand.

I also have, however, the Kirst converter on two 36 Navy Remingtons, and they are slick as can be.  They are 6 shot, and though the rachet is sharper than the R&D, they are holding up well.

You remarked about how different the Remington and Colt are, but there is only a difference in frame construction of the open top Colt.  Mechanically, they are nearly identical, and functionally, other than the Remington's trigger and bolt sharing the same pivot pin and the way the hand is attached to the hammer, there isn't enough difference to disallow using the tuning and timing techniques from one to be applied to the other.  A slightly shortened Remington trigger spring could be used in a Colt, a Colt mainspring can be used in a Remington, the hand spring in the Italian clones are interchangable.  A Colt trigger could be fitted to a Remington.

If you compare the 1875 Remington and the Colt SAA, there is even more similarity.

[Marshal Tac]

I have a pair of the Uberti forged frame '58's with the R&D conversions, Marshall.. You will like them. The shoot really well, and are alot easier to load that you would think. I have been "converted" to the point that I have stopped shooting all my other pistols for these two.

[SeeThirty]

By the way, one thing I'm not sure anyone else has pointed out here, is the R&D gives you 6 chambers for the Remmie, while Kirst's only gives you 5. If you were using this outside of matches, that may make a difference.

I know I won't be using mine for CASS stuff for now, so I'm getting the R&D. 

[John E. Ringo]

The Kirst .38 Special cylinder is a 6-shot.

[Marshal Will Wingam]

I've been shooting my .38's for CAS. One has an R&D cyl and one has a gated Kirst. Both are outstanding. Both are 6-shots. Now that I have good ammunition for my .44/45 conversions, I'll be shooting them. They both have R&D cylinders. I don't mind dropping them out to load. If I need to do a round on the clock, I'll just use my gated 38. I suppose when Kenny at R&D comes out with a gated conversion, or Walt Kirst gets a 6-shot one, I'll put one in one of my .45's.

[River City John]

I also shoot .38sp in my Remington Navy. Fit and operation of the Kirst was flawless right as a drop-in, and it locked up tighter than with the original cap'n'ball cylinder in it. No wear apparent on the hand, etc. after four years use.

[Halfway Creek Charlie]

The Kirst in 44 Rem (44 Colt) is a six shot also, one of my reasons for going with the caliber. I want to choose which i leave empty...or Not. No person or government is going to choose that for me. I bought a Cimarron birds head grip SAA and it had a plug in one hole...until I got it home.

[Flint]

Halfway, who or what rule required a plug in the Cimarron revolver?  I've never heard of such a thing.

[Halfway Creek Charlie]

I have No earthly Idea, but I bout it in KS at a well known gunshop. It had an aluminum plug in one cylinder. Must have been something about inporting the gun as it was one with the REAL firing pin and no transfer bar. It is the only one I ever saw that way. it was new in the box and I was first owner.
I will say that it was a very well built gun.
I found out the hard way. I was talking when I was loading one day and inadvertly loaded 3 44 Mags into the 45LC cylinder along with 3 45LC. Yep I was jabber jawing and should have been watching what I was doing, but every other hole got loaded with 44 Mag. I didn't know it until I shot the whole cylinder. I was using Blazer Ammo and I thought their QC was really bad.......until I looked at the cylinder and saw brass color and aluminum color and I knew exactly what I had done. Gun stayed intact and I didn't loose any fingers. Had to use a screw driver to drive the 44 Mag cases out due to splitting them. I sent the gun back to Cimarron and they had their gunsmith check it out. It came back with a note that it was fine, but don't do that again! LOL