.375 v. 357

['Monterrey' Jack Brass]

Fellows,

I'm new to the conversion game and have a question that I am sure has been addressed on this list ad infinitum. However, here goes....:

I am the new owner of two .38LC M1851 Navy 'conversions' (compliments of Cimarron). I am also the relatively new owner of a (tight) original M1849 Colt conversion. Of course, the idear of .38 is different between these firearms (repo vs. original).

Question: Has anyone fired .357 through a .375 and if so what should I look out for? What charge, what results, etc?

Yep, I'm one of those who fire original firearms - though very sparingly. I've had great success in so doing with my M1881 S&W DA as well as my Belgium and Worthington Arms shotguns (BP only, of course). Just want to know what to expect and if there is anything I should look out for or what additional supplies I might need, & etc before I embark on a live-fire trial with my M1849 conversion original.

Thanks for your insights,

YMH&OS,

"Monterrey' J. Brass

[Flint]

Not sure I'm clear on what you have.  The 1849 should be 32 caliber, not 38, unless it is a Pocket Navy 36, which was built on the 49 Pocket frame.  In any case, a converted 36 will need a 375 bullet, or a hollow based 357.

The Cimarron R-M conversions and Opentoips are 357 bored, for standard 38 ammo.  The only conversions that are 375 bored are the Kirst or R&D cylindered 51 or 61 repro Navy cap & ball guns.

If your Cimarron is an Uberti factory "conversion" it will be chambered and bored for modern 38 cal (357) ammo.  If the Cimarron is a converted 51 or 61 cap & ball, by Kirst or R&D, then it will be 375 bored and need hollow based wadcutters or similar, or a heel based 375 bullet.

[1860]

I didn't know an 1849 was converted to cartridge.  They were basically .31 cal and I've only seen .36 & 44 rimfire conversions.  You have a pic, I'd love to see it

Where did you get the rimfire brass if that's what it takes.   As to the bullets, I shoot an original Colt lightning (38 Colt) with the larger bore.  I use very soft and very hollowbase .38(.357) wad cutters and BP in a trimmed 38spl case.  I fill the hollowbase up with lub before I hand load them and they work quite well in my gun.

Thanks
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['Monterrey' Jack Brass]

Fellows - This one is a centerfire. From what I understand I'm a lucky fellow to have found this piece and can use normal, centerfire brass. I understand the differences in what .38 is regading bore size for the original v. the repro, just looking for info on the differences in and tips loading for these two different weapons and you have been very helpful.

1860 - Where do you get proper hollow based heeled bullets? If you cast them, what mould do you use (make, model #'s & etc)

Flint - The original is clearly double stamped '31 cal' for some reason (no '38 cal' overstamp attempt, just two '31 cal' stamps). It is a .375

Both - Again, thanks for the info. I posted a couple of pictures as fyi so you can see the original '49 Conversion.



Original shown with Cimarron '51 Navy Conversion for size comparison


Obverse of the original



YMH&OS,

'Monterrey' J. Brass

[Flint]

Your "49" could actually be either a converted 1862 Pocket Navy or 1862 Pocket Police.  It has been rebarrelled, and so could be either, as the frames were the same.  If the frame is stamped 31 caliber, then it coi\uld originally have been a 49 or a Wells Fargo, and the frame had to be cut to allow the 38 caliber rebated cylinder to be installed, along with a later model Colt conversion barrel.  That barrel was probably never a percussion barrel, but made to be for a cartridge gun.

If the Colt factory made the gun, they were using up parts, which they never wasted. 

[Halfway Creek Charlie]

You can get 38 hollow based heeled, outside lubed,(original type)bullets and brass, moulds, dies and such from Old West Moulds, Fruita, Co. Bernie Knowles is the owner, he has no website, but his email is: allisonmonument@aol.com.

Does your original have matching S/N'? if so it looks like the ones in McDowell's book and were produced as cartridge guns. I would if your TG was replaced?

What does the bbl of your repro '51 slug? .375 or .357?

['Monterrey' Jack Brass]

1/2 way Creek Charlie - Now that's the answer to my question for molds..! I will e-mail Mr Knowles presently regarding it. I feel like I'm on my way to somewhere with this information.

Original has matching #s on all save the 5 round cylinder. Regarding the Cimarrons, they're .357.

Thanks again,

YMH&OS,

J. Brass

[Halfway Creek Charlie]

Sounds to me like you have a 1862 pocket model conversion instead of an 1849. the '49 would be 31 Cal. and the '62 would be 36 Cal, converted to 38.
Do you have or can you get your hands on a copy of MCDowell's "Colt Conversions and other Conversion Pistols" It's out of print now and really expensive to buy, but it is invaluable for us "Conversion" guys. That is all I collect, All makers of Conversions.

If you email or PM me some close ups of your gun, I'll look in my Copy ofMcDowell's Book and confirm my belief.

It looks like a round bbl pocket model to me. The 49 Model would have had an octagonal BBL.

I know there is a picture and an article of this model in the book. I just haven't looked at the Colt section for a couple years. I was lucky, I bought the book in 1997 at the KC gun Show for $40.00 brand new. Now they are $250.00 up if you can find them.

[Halfway Creek Charlie]

Mystery solved.

Your original is a Colt Model 1862 3 1/2 Inch Round S- Lug Cartridge BBL Revolver and the 31 Cal over strike is correct except it should have been overstruck with 38 Cal. These frames were the same as the 1849 and may have been surplus 1849 frames. they had the cartridge bbls added at the factory and they were sold as Cartridge guns. Per Mc Dowell's book page 351. If you look at your bbl it has no hole for a rammer.

These frames were taken from Percussion inventory and are numbered in the 275,000-330,000 range, the percussion number range of the frames.

Your gun was made from the 1849 frame,backstrap and TG. And shares internals with the 1849. It may have the 1849 S/N range which is why they thought it was an 1849 Pocket model. Some of these guns were built with the original S/N on the frames, TG, and Backstrap then the new Cartridge bbl was added with the gun's S/N.

McDowell says that the 1849 frames were stepped for the rebated 38 Cylinders as the original 31 CAl. cylinders were to small dia to convert to 38.

Clear as mud right?

I knew I had seen this gun in the book, not only that I have owned one. Pretty neat little pocket pistol.

Please send the research fee to.........LOL

[1860]

Jack,

Sorry, can't help ya much on the bullets.  They are 357, real soft lead and the hollow base goes way up into the bullet.  When fired they obturate to the larger bore size and are really quite accurate in mine.  They came to me in an estate sale of a well known local shooter, they are packaged in 3 foot plastic tubes that were used in a fully automatic comercial reloader.  They are very old and I have no idea where he got them.  I'll send you some to try if you wish, shoot me a PM.

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[French Jack]

Jack, you can get a mould for the hollow base 38 (.357-8) , from Rapine.  I have one and it works well with the nominal .375 bore.  I cast them from pure lead and fill the base with lube.  You will no doubt have to trim the 38 spl. cases down, as the conversion is very likely chambered in 38 Colt, which is shorter case.  You can also get proper brass from Starline, if you don't have a bunch of 38 spl brass to use.  You can google Rapine and get his phone number, or you can go to Buffalo Arms and see if they have one in stock.  They can supply your brass needs as well.   I also used 38 spl dies to load ammo.  Might have to shorten seating or neck expander dies though. 
Just a few pointers.
Luck.

[Jubel]

Cousin try http://www.gadcustomcartridges.com/ he has the hollow based bullet and heel based ammo you need if you are not hand loading. He's a great resource if you want to start heel base hand loading also.

['Monterrey' Jack Brass]

Fellows,

Thanks much for your inputs - you've put me on the right path regarding my inquiries.

I'm looking forward to firing those conversions, the repos and the original now that I am armed with the right data.

YMH&OS,

'Monterrey' J. Brass