Historically correct coat

Started by royal barnes, November 05, 2006, 09:19:43 PM

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royal barnes

November 05, 2006, 09:19:43 PM
When did suit coats or sack coats first have a "riding split". Also, did period coats have the buttons on the cuffs that are seen in modern wear? I've looked at all my reference books and can't find the answers. I'm sure some of you know without even looking it up. :)
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River City John

#1
November 05, 2006, 11:08:45 PM
Buttons on the coat sleeve are a carry-over from military uniform styling. Three buttons on the seam line common.
They started out functional on a uniform or sometimes denoted rank, but in transition to civilian styles became decorative.



(As far as riding splits, I bet since man has domesticated the horse his apparel has been modified to sit a horse.There were riding splits on tunics, mail, etc. since earliest times.)

Think of our Revolutionary era where long coats were split into tails with turnbacks of contrasting color, in uniforms it was often a unit identifier along with facing color on lapels.
Formal wear today even has swallow-tail coats. As prevailing style shortened the skirt on coats, they still kept the idea of a split. Sure makes sitting in a chair more comfortable, too.

Hard dates and further data will be contributed soon, I'm sure. But those details of style go way back before our era that we try to depict.
 
"I was born by the river in a little tent, and just like the river I've been running ever since." - Sam Cooke
"He who will not look backward with reverence, will not look forward with hope." - Edmund Burke
". . .freedom is not everything or the only thing, perhaps we will put that discovery behind us and comprehend, before it's too late, that without freedom all else is nothing."- G. Warren Nutter
NCOWS #L146
GAF #275

Dr. Bob

#2
November 12, 2006, 07:16:51 PM
Royal,

I believe that you would find that frock coats and cutaway coats had a split in the tail.  Sack coats were normal[y no more than hip length and were not split.  In US clothing this held true until the mid 1950's when a small split appears.  In the 60's & 70' the split grew to 5-7 inches in the center or 4-6 inches on either side seam.  Back splits were common in the late 70's thru at least the mid 90's.  Now you find nearly all coats, sport or suit without any split.


Dr. Bob   NCOWS Senate Candidate
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Dr. Bob Butcher,
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St. George

#3
November 12, 2006, 11:12:31 PM
Civilian coats draw much from their military counterpart - and the split seen on the shorter coats originated as a method to ease the 'binding' while fully-dressed on the march - wearing a greatcoat -  as it allowed the legs to stride more freely.

Some greatcoats even had a 'button-back' arrangement to hold the tails to the rear.

For the mounted soldier - Cavalry or Dragoon or Mounted Infantry - it allowed an easier mount-up, when swinging the leg over the saddle.

European soldiery wore some pretty 'detailed' uniforms - cut differently for different regiments.

The sleeve buttons are said to be the idea of Napoleon's - to keep his soldiers from wiping their noses on their sleeves...

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Steel Horse Bailey

#4
November 13, 2006, 09:53:14 AM
It would seem that Mssr. Bonaparte really knew his men ... and their habits.  (I'll bet he wiped HIS nose a time or 2!)
"May Your Powder always be Dry and Black; Your Smoke always White; and Your Flames Always Light the Way to Eternal Shooting Fulfillment !"

St. George

#5
November 13, 2006, 10:53:19 AM
Yeah - but Wellington gave him good reason to cry...

Vaya,

Scouts Out!
"It Wasn't Cowboys and Ponies - It Was Horses and Men.
It Wasn't Schoolboys and Ladies - It Was Cowtowns and Sin..."

Steel Horse Bailey

#6
November 14, 2006, 01:35:27 PM
He did, indeed!
"May Your Powder always be Dry and Black; Your Smoke always White; and Your Flames Always Light the Way to Eternal Shooting Fulfillment !"

River City John

#7
March 19, 2007, 10:05:38 PM
I realize this thread is a bit old, but I just ran across this image in some files I was weeding out.
The photo date is 1845. What's interesting is the very fashionable clothing worn by the gentleman and note the decorative use of buttons on the cuff of the boys coat.

Just for fun let's see who correctly identifies these two subjects.



RCJ
"I was born by the river in a little tent, and just like the river I've been running ever since." - Sam Cooke
"He who will not look backward with reverence, will not look forward with hope." - Edmund Burke
". . .freedom is not everything or the only thing, perhaps we will put that discovery behind us and comprehend, before it's too late, that without freedom all else is nothing."- G. Warren Nutter
NCOWS #L146
GAF #275

Dr. Bob

#8
March 19, 2007, 10:26:08 PM
RCJ,

Are they English??

Regards, Doc
Dr. Bob Butcher,
NCOWS 2420, Senator
HR 4
GAF 405,
NRA Life,
KGC 8.
Warthog
Motto: Clean mind  -  Clean body,   Take your pick

River City John

#9
March 19, 2007, 10:31:34 PM
Only by heritage.
"I was born by the river in a little tent, and just like the river I've been running ever since." - Sam Cooke
"He who will not look backward with reverence, will not look forward with hope." - Edmund Burke
". . .freedom is not everything or the only thing, perhaps we will put that discovery behind us and comprehend, before it's too late, that without freedom all else is nothing."- G. Warren Nutter
NCOWS #L146
GAF #275

Fox Creek Kid

#10
March 19, 2007, 10:34:35 PM
Robt. E. & Fitzhugh Lee.

River City John

#11
March 19, 2007, 10:46:37 PM
Yeppers.
And a bottle of sarsaparilla if you can supply nicknames. R.E. Lee had several, only one for F.Lee that I know of. 
"I was born by the river in a little tent, and just like the river I've been running ever since." - Sam Cooke
"He who will not look backward with reverence, will not look forward with hope." - Edmund Burke
". . .freedom is not everything or the only thing, perhaps we will put that discovery behind us and comprehend, before it's too late, that without freedom all else is nothing."- G. Warren Nutter
NCOWS #L146
GAF #275

Delmonico

#12
March 19, 2007, 10:49:57 PM
Fitz for the one. 

Mongrel Historian


Always get the water for the coffee upstream from the herd.

Ab Ovo Usque ad Mala

The time has passed so quick, the years all run together now.

River City John

#14
March 19, 2007, 11:12:38 PM
Yes, several. The two most well known were 'Marse Lee' and 'Granny Lee'

'Rooney' for Wm. H. Fitzhugh Lee

The other Fitzhugh Lee was R.E. Lee's nephew.
"I was born by the river in a little tent, and just like the river I've been running ever since." - Sam Cooke
"He who will not look backward with reverence, will not look forward with hope." - Edmund Burke
". . .freedom is not everything or the only thing, perhaps we will put that discovery behind us and comprehend, before it's too late, that without freedom all else is nothing."- G. Warren Nutter
NCOWS #L146
GAF #275

Delmonico

#15
March 19, 2007, 11:23:35 PM
Quote from: River City John on March 19, 2007, 11:12:38 PM


The other Fitzhugh Lee was R.E. Lee's nephew.

That's the one I was thinkin' about, guess I own you a tiny cup of really sweet coffee John. ;D
Mongrel Historian


Always get the water for the coffee upstream from the herd.

Ab Ovo Usque ad Mala

The time has passed so quick, the years all run together now.

River City John

#16
March 20, 2007, 08:11:15 AM
Quote from: Delmonico on March 19, 2007, 11:23:35 PM
That's the one I was thinkin' about, guess I own you a tiny cup of really sweet coffee John. ;D

I'll collect at the GAF Dept. of the Missouri shoot.
"I was born by the river in a little tent, and just like the river I've been running ever since." - Sam Cooke
"He who will not look backward with reverence, will not look forward with hope." - Edmund Burke
". . .freedom is not everything or the only thing, perhaps we will put that discovery behind us and comprehend, before it's too late, that without freedom all else is nothing."- G. Warren Nutter
NCOWS #L146
GAF #275

Ol Gabe

#17
March 20, 2007, 09:06:58 AM
Nice pic, R.C.J., 'spose if you posted it on the BOLD forum you could get them to ID the fingerprint on the young man's face? Now that would be a hoot!
Best regards and good sleuthing!
'Ol Gabe
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