USN Period Uniforms

[Grizzly Adams]

What are the differences between the current Navy uniform and say one from the Spanish American War or even the Civil War?   Other than uniforms that look poorly fitted, the old pics of the blues look pretty close!   Trying to put something together and wonder how much current can be adapted to period.

Thanks,

Grizzly

[Malachi Thorne]

Good Evening, Grizzly;

The short answer is "alot".  The US Navy, like it's British counterpart, was the most hide-bound and resistant-to-change of the fighting services.  While individual details (such as the arrangement of gold lace rank insignia on an officer's sleeves) changed quite a bit, the basic cut of the uniforms changed very little from the Civil War to the Spanish-American war.  Civil War coats and trousers were, as a rule, cut a bit baggier than their Span-Am equivalents, but this was merely a mirror of the "style of the day" for men's clothing in general.  Modern US Naval uniforms are also a much darker shade of Navy Blue (some would rightly say "Navy Black") than their 19th Century counterparts.

I have a copy of Colonel Robert H. Rankin's Uniforms of the Sea Services in my collection, and will scan a few of the colored plates from the appropriate uniforms tomorrow, and post them to this thread.

One question though: Officer, Petty-Officer, or Able Seaman?

[Drydock]

I suspect you are speaking of the Enlisted "Crackerjack" uniform.  Basicly these uniforms are unchanged in form and style since 1895.  The material is different, mostly in a finer wool weave somewhat darker in color.  With the addition of a "Donald Duck" style hat the current Crackerjack uniform is an acceptable representation of a Spanish American War  era sailor.

For Cheifs and officers, the Choker whites are again very close to the Spanish American War era.  For Blues the Army 1895 semi dress jacket is pretty much dead on, with the addition of naval rank and insignia on the stand up collar.

Indeed, it might be said that in tradition, much of the surface Navy semi dress uniform seems to be maintained as per the SAW, where the USN saw its first true fleet actions.

[Malachi Thorne]

Good Evening, Sgt Drydock;

Excellent point about the "crackerjack uniform".  I was only considering Officer's uniforms, which were all over the map in detail differences.  (I seem to recall the officer's sleeve lace changed something like four times during the course of the Civil War alone...)  After perusing Rankin's Uniforms of the Sea Services, it would appear that the Petty Officer's duty uniforms were simple sack coats with brass buttons, worn over white (summer) or blue (winter) trousers.

Also, the Quartermaster Shop is currently offering a M1895 US Army undress coat in both blue and white.  Either could be adapted to a US Naval Officer's undress coat with a simple change in rank devices:

http://www.quartermastershop.com/1872%20and%20on%20US%20Officer/m-1895_officer_blouse.htm

[Grizzly Adams]

Good evening, Gentlemen.

Thanks for the information.  I was thinking along the lines of a Petty Officer's uniform, and was hoping that much of the current "Cracker Jack" uniform could be adapted.  Currently, the highest rank to wear the Cracker Jack is PO1.  Don't know if that was true during the SAW or CW, but it has been true for a very long time.   (Well, there was a strange period during the mid 70's I think where the CPO style uniform replaced the old cracker jack for PO2 and 3??)

The change in "blue" to an almost black currently is interesting.  I have a pea coat issued to me in 1968 that is navy blue.  In 1984 I was issued another one, and it was black and half the weight and quality of the older jacket.

Anyone know when the white jumper with the blue coller and cuffs was dropped? 

[Drydock]

The Blue trimmed white Jumper was dropped during the "Zumwalt" era of the Mid 70s, at the same time the "Salt and Pepper" white shirt, black trousers  and peaked cap replaced the traditional crackerjack for E-4 to E-6 personnel.  In the Mid 80s these uniforms were dropped in favor of the traditional uniform, with the white jumper being an a all white polyknit outfit (Universaly hated as the "Pajama" uniform)

The Crackerjack was worn up to the PO1 level during the SAW.  You might look at the pictures we have up on the front page of the GAF site.  Several are of sailors in the Mid 1890s.

[Grizzly Adams]

Are you certain?   I joined the Navy in 1967 and remained in the reserves for 12 years - some of that during the "New Navy" with Zumwalt.  (I was attached to his command in Vietnam.)  I was never issued a dress white uniform with blue trim, nor have I ever seen one.

I have searched e-bay for months, and have yet to find a white jumper with blue trim.  Seems like if they had been around until Zumwalt's era, there would be piles of them on e-bay.  Sure are a bunch of blue cracker jacks uniforms to be found there! 

If anyone spots one, give me a shout!

[Dr. Bob]

Grizzly Adams,

Do you want to wear the one you buy?  If so, we would need to know your size.  Most of the crackerjack uniforms that I have seen are size 36 or 38 top and size 26 - 30 waist.  Found a pair of older good quality wool one in size 32 waist.  Has a brass zipper pocket on the left hip.  Didn't check the price.  I think there is a top size 40 or 42, but I didn't check the size today when I was where they are for sale.  I have some WWII Army Officer uniforms that fit me, but not any USN.  I have never seen white with blue cuffs and collar. 

[bosunpete]

Hey grizzly, don't use the WWII uniforms, they are of a different cut. Plus if you are like the rest of us former sailors, the chance of us fitting into our old uniforms is fairly 'slim' while we aren't.

You're best bet for a quality ACW or SAW Navy Petty officer's uniform is from Steve Hesson. Steve is a retired Squid who makes the best.

His website is: http://www.hesson-clothiers.com/index.htm and when I pinged him for my Naval Officer's sack coat a few months ago he was at a 6-8 month backlog.

Another company that makes PO jumpers is the Navy Mercantile http://www.geocities.com/navymercantile/ I have not seen her quality, but she is listed by the US Naval Landing Party. http://www.usnlp.org/index.htm

Hope this helps.

[Drydock]

I was active duty from 85 to 05.  My E-6 recruiter still wore the S&P, but it was on its way out then.  I was told that Zumwalt was responsible for dropping the Crackerjacks during his tenure as CNO, but the whites may have been dropped earlier, probably around the time the "Donald Duck" was discontinued with the winter uniform, sometime after WW2.

[Grizzly Adams]

Thanks, Bosun!  I'll check out those links. 

Sgt, Zumwalt did have a hand in dropping the cracker Jack.  I remember in addition to ticking off folks it also caused problems on the older ships with storage of the new CPO type jackets, as the ship board lockers where all designed for the traditional uniforms which fit nicely. 

I read on the net that the donald duck hat was retired in 1962.  Still can't find anything on the white/blue uniform.  Steve McQueen wore that uniform in the Sand Pebbles.  Great film!  Remember?

Dr. Bob.  I actually can fit into some of my old uniforms, but it is a stretch!  No pun intended!  An interesting thing I have noticed in terms of size is that 95% of the old WW1 and WWII uniforms are SMALL!  I'm talkin like 34-36 jumpers and 28-30 pants size!  The "Greatest Generation" where little folks compared to the current corp!

[Guns Garrett]

My dad served the latter half of WWII, and did NOT have the blue collar on the whites,  The collar flap and sleeves had the piping and stars in blue (reverse of the blue "crackerjacks"), but the collar flap itself was white.  "Undress" whites did not have the blue emboidery.  The white canvas hat was only worn with whites, dungarees (summer/tropical), or summer dress blues.  They wore the blue round hat ( the "Donald Duck", with "U.S. Navy" on the headband) with winter blues, and a blue canvas hat worn in winter with the dungarees and foul weather gear.  I saw a photo of an uncle who was in the Merchant Marine in the '20s or '30's and he had the whites with the blue collar flap and the white Donald Duck hat.

The Navy's nickname for the E1 - E6 uniform in the '70's was "salt and pepper" but we Marines referred to it as the "Good Humor Man" uniform - it went along with the Air Force's "Greyhound Bus Driver" outfit, and the Army's "Mexican General" get-up. An Army Private had more shiny brass, ropes and cords on his dress uniform than a Fleet Admiral!

[Grizzly Adams]

The Navy's nickname for the E1 - E6 uniform in the '70's was "salt and pepper" but we Marines referred to it as the "Good Humor Man" uniform - it went along with the Air Force's "Greyhound Bus Driver" outfit, and the Army's "Mexican General" get-up. An Army Private had more shiny brass, ropes and cords on his dress uniform than a Fleet Admiral!

Har!   Spoken like a true Marine!  You guys just consider us transportation anyway!

Yes, I remember that dorky uniform.  I was issued one, but always managed to avoid actually wearing it!  Good Humor Man is fitting indeed!

I was visiting with an old friend of mine today.  He was on the USS Wisconsin from 1946-48.  I asked him about the blue and white uniform, and he said it was dropped shortly after Pearl Harbour.  Too expensive for the war size fleet.  He also said that as he recalled, it was worn mostly in the South Pacific prior to the war.  FWIW!

[Grizzly Adams]

Here are a couple of pics FYI.





1917 USN Uniform

Note the dress white with blue coller and cuffs.

[bariron]

quarterdeck.org has period navy uniform regulations and illustrations

[Pitspitr]

Check this out

http://cgi.ebay.com/19th-century-U-S-Navy-uniforms-cap-and-duffel-bag_W0QQitemZ290079619527QQihZ019QQcategoryZ7271QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item290079619527

[bosunpete]

Those uniforms are WWII era across the board, if that. But thanks for posting the info

[Grizzly Adams]

Those uniforms are WWII era across the board, if that. But thanks for posting the info

Yep, I looked at them and they are for sure WWII or later.  Seller just does not know what they have.  Hope no one buys them based on the description!

Hey, Bosunpete,  I talked with Steve.  That guy is a walking encyclopedia of information about Navy uniforms.  I am going to order from him.  Thanks for the tip!

[bosunpete]

Yupper, Steve is incredible in the shear amount of  naval uniform knowledge. If it wasn't for the 6-8 month backlog when I went to get my next set, I would've gone through him.

For my ACW Naval Officer's uniform I went through Quartermaster. I got trousers, a vest and a naval sack coat. Next year I'll be getting a dress jacket.

Bosun Pete