Why the Armi Sport Spencer Rifle is not N-SSA Approved

[Two Flints]

Hello SSS,

I thought it would be interesting to post the reasons why the Armi Sport Spencer Rifle is  currently not listed on the N-SSA Approved Reproduction Arms, Barrels, and Processes-Hand and Shoulder Arms list.  In this regard, I posed two questions to Mr. John Holland, Chairman of the Small Arms Committee, North-South Skirmish Association N-SSA, whose responses (in italics) appear below for your edification.

Is the Armi Sport Spencer rifle approved for N-SSA?

     No. The Armi Sport Spencer Rifle is not approved for use in the N-SSA. The Armi Sport Spencer Rifle is not able to be given "Production Approval" for use in the N-SSA because, as produced, it is a combination of a Carbine and a Rifle. From the front of receiver back to the end of the butt it is a Carbine, complete with the Carbine saddle bar and ring. From the front of the receiver forward to the muzzle it is a Rifle.

Is there any way to make the Armi Sport rifle "individually approvable" for use in the N-SSA?

    Yes. the Armi Sport Spencer Rifle would be able to receive an "Individua Approval"       
from the N-SSA's Small Arms Committee by making the following modifications:

1 - Remove the section of the saddle bar unit that is inlet into the butt stock and fill the inlet with a wood insert. The rear mounting screw doubles as the rear lock mounting screw and would require a lock screw escutcheon to be set into the filled inlet to accommodate the head of the rear lock screw.

2 - The forward part of the saddle bar plate, that is mounted into the receiver would have to be cut off the saddle bar plate, filed flush to the receiver, and remounted with the forward mounting screw. The screw would most likely have to be shortened, and the counterbore depth increased for the screw head to fit flush again.

A look at an original Spencer Rifle would help you to better understand the differences and modifications required.

Hope this helps,

Sincerely,
John Holland 
Chairman Small Arms Committee 
North-South Skirmish Association

[Tuolumne Lawman]

I guess that means if I showed up with one of the original 1860 model carbines that had been either reworked into a two band rifle or had a sling bar added during the Civil War, it wouldn't be authentic and couldn't compete. I think he needs to see MARCOTS book.

I think this is an example of a little knowledge being a dangerous thing.  It is like some of the serious re-enactors I know that strive to be so authentic, that they are not realistic and create a world that never was.

[Two Flints]

Hello SSS,

The Spencer rifle WITH Saddle Bar and Ring has already been discussed at SSS.  Go to this link and see the earlier comments: 

http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,6441.0.html

Two Flints

[French Jack]

Hello All-- Mr. Holland is NOT saying that there were no changes as Tuolmne speaks of, they were not made until AFTER the time period covered by the NSSA which is the Civil War.  Those changes to the 1860 or 1865 carbine were not made until after the war.  The modified/reworked carbines were made up during the Indian War period.
Before we take Mr. Holland to task, understand where he is coming from.

[matt45]

Hello the Camp,
     Considering that the bulk of the rifles used in the war were first issued to mounted units... and considering that those soldiers either fabricated or had some add a saddle ring... and finally, that we have period pictures with the rifle with ring.
If I am not mistaken, this is kind of the same process by which Latin became a dead language. 
                                                                                matt45

[Lone Gunman]

If I am not mistaken, this is kind of the same process by which Latin became a dead language. 
   

Vice-President Dan Quayle once said, "I was recently on a tour of Latin America, and the only regret I have was that I didn't study Latin harder in school so I could converse with those people." 

[Fox Creek Kid]

I agree with their ruling, however I still can't figure out how the 1865 Model carbine was approved as none were really issued during the war.

FWIW, Tammy at Taylor's told me the reason the rifle is the way it is had something to do w/ Armisport and their wood supplier having already cut buttstocks w/ cutouts.

On a final note, civilian owned Spencers were not as common on the Frontier as most would like to believe as the military pretty much owned every one and no sales were made to the public by the military until past 1870. A civilian would have had to have bought an 1860 Model upon discharge from the Union Army or a civilian purchase. Granted they were on the Frontier, but not the thousands upon thousands some would have us believe.

[BobM]

Fox Creek Kid maybe this rule from the NSSA will help explane how the 1865 carbine was approved:14.1 ACCEPTABLE SKIRMISH MATCH FIREARMS
Only original or reproductions of military firearms manufactured during the Civil War or prewar era, and which meet the criteria set forth in these rules, shall be used for competition. Those arms must have been manufactured prior to 26 April 1865 in quantities of at least 100 arms each. The arms must have been possessed by a US, CS, state, or local military authority during the American Civil War, but they do not need to have been issued to troops in the field.

As deliveries of more than 100 model 1865 where made before 26 April 1865(MARCOT pg 82) They are legal under N-SSA rules.

Now to Mr Tuolumne lawman, I can gaurantee you that Mr. Holland has read Marcots book and is more familiar with it than you are with the North-South Skirmish Assoc. I will agree with you though that a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing.

Bob M

[Tuolumne Lawman]

Ouch!

I will have to do some digging.  When I was researching my Spencer article, I am sure I read that some 1860 carbines were reworked to rifles DURING the Civil war.  I believe it was Bilby's "A revolution in Arms" if it wasn't Marcot's book. We have pics of Civil war cavalry and mounted lightning brigade folks with sling rings and bars added to their rifles.

Joe (Bilby) you out there?

[Two Flints]

Hello SSS,

I Emailed Joe Bilby and his response appears below.

Two Flints


I am sure I am logged on there, but can't remember my sign on.  Feel free to post this, though.  To be brief, having read the posts, there are some good points made. The N-SSA does have some strict dimensional rules, which the Armi-Sport apparently does not meet.  Ironically, of course, there are modifications allowed to guns which one would never have seen in the Civil War, but that is a controversy I don't want to get involved in, as it is like a dog chasing its tail. :-)  Many of these rules were promulgated back in the 1950s, when we knew a lot less than we do now, but they are grandfathered in, which does, I admit, give an impression of inconsistency, but allows older good faith modifications.  I do not envy the N-SSA small arms committee or IG their jobs, frankly.  They try their best to be fair and as authentic as possible and I do not presume to second guess them.

Indeed there were field modifications of individual Spencers during the war, and the photos verify that, especially in the case of rifle with sling arrangement. I would think that an individual gun manifesting these particular changes could be submitted as an individual piece for approval, providing that the modifications were backed up by photographic and/or documentary evidence.  One would not want to open the "if they had thought of it they would have done it" crowd. :-)

Joe Bilby

PS: The point on the Model 1865 is well taken, but they were contracted for and some transferred to Federal custody before the actual end of the war, and, therefore, meet N-SSA rules.

[Will Ketchum]

Those of us in NCOWS can sure understand what Mr. Bilby is saying since we have the same problem of perception with the old model Ruger Vaquero which was allowed when it first came out because there just wasn't very many good Colt clones out there.  Now with a prolific number of clones it appears that we should never have allowed the Vaquero.  However we did and members bought them in good faith and it wouldn't be right to outlaw them now.

Will Ketchum

[DJ]

From what I've read and seen, there were two different types of Spencer rifles with saddle rings.  During the CW, some of the mounted infantrymen in Wilder's Brigade appeared to use saddle hardware (footman loops?) to mount saddle rings on the buttstocks of their rifles.  These were screwed into the wood of the stock.  It's unclear how many were so modified, and whether it was a unit-wide modification, or only by some individuals, but there are a number of different photos in circulation showing such rifles.  The other variation was a lot of just over 1,000 Burnside-manufactured Model 1865 carbines that were converted by, I believe, the Springfield Armory about 1870.  They retained their carbine saddle rings.

The receiver and buttstock on a Spencer carbine has a cutout to accommodate the saddle ring bar, and it is not possible to mount a carbine saddle ring bar on a rifle without significant metalwork to the receiver and a moderate amount of inletting to the buttstock.

[Two Flints]

Hi SSS,

Read DJ's comments above and decided to post two photographs of rifles issued to Wilder's Brigade, which show the addition of a saddle bar and ring to the buttstock to these two  Spencer rifles.

Check out the buttstock on this Spencer rifle.


The photo, bottom left, shows the addition of a ring (and saddlebar??) to the buttstock of this Spencer rifle.


Two Flints