Newest Toy .... Webley R.I.C. revolver

[RattlesnakeJack]

A local acquaintance decided he was willing to part with his Webley R.I.C. revolver and .... since I've always wanted one .....        

Click on thumbnails -





This double action, sidegate loading/extracting design was first introduced in 1867, and was adopted by the Royal Irish Constabulary the following year, thus becoming known as the "R.I.C." model. A robust, functional and accurate revolver which saw a great deal of civilian, police and military use in Britain and its Empire, as well as throughout the world. Numerous copies of varying quality were produced in a number of foreign countries ..... George Armstrong Custer is reported to have been presented with a pair of R.I.C. revolvers in 1869 by the British Ambassador, and supposedly favored them - it is believed that he was carrying them at the Battle of the Little Bighorn ....

Serial no. 6597

Marked, left side of frame, in front of cylinder:
WEBLEY'S
  R.I.C.
No. 1 .455 CF
NEW MODEL

Winged bullet logo over "W&S" lower front of frame, left side.

Marked on top strap:
ARMY & NAVY (left side of sight groove)
C. S. L. (right side of sight groove)
(This indicates that the revolver was retailed by the Army & Navy Co-Operative Society Limited ... an early "co-op" set up to supply British military and naval officers with virtually everything they required in service.)

Fully functional, bright clean bore with strong rifling.  I have 50 black powder MkI cartridges loaded, and hope to get a chance to play with it briefly following a Cowboy Action match I'm going to tomorrow, which is being held in a small town indoor range - if they'll let me fire BP in there at all, that is ..... 

But I'm definitely a happy camper!   

[River City John]

Beautiful!

[Silent Joe]

Congrets, Pard. It's a nice looking revolver. 

[Irish Dave]

NOW, I'm envious.

That's a great piece. Kinda been thinking about one myself recently.
Congrats.

[gw]

Nice          Are the Mk.I cartridges heel typed bullets or inside lubed?

[Dr. Bob]

RJR,

A most excellent acquisition!!  There were 4 RIC models at the gun show last weekend, all in cases.  I left a lot of drool at that table.  I'm with Irish Dave!

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

All my readings on the .455 series of cartridges, that began with the .450 Adams cartridge say that they were all inside lubed.  Some, like the .476 Enfield had holllow bases, but in my view this was meant to accomodate loose barrel diameters, rather than to expand to fill a larger bore.

I have a Webley Mk VI, that does very well thank you with flat based bullets, but is deadly with the Lyman 155 gr hollow based .45 bullet, as long as care is taken in getting a properly filled out skirt.

I have a suspician that the heeled bullet in the .38 LC & .44 Colt, and some others, were more intended to fit the  bores of existing pistols,, and the limited size of their cylinders, than a preference for the heeled bullet concept.  When revolvers could be designed from the ground up, the practicalities of inside lubed bullets won out.  (The .44 American cartridge evolved directly from the .44 Henry rimfire chambering of the first #3 S&W, but was soon changed.)

[RattlesnakeJack]

Many Thanks for the kind words and congratulations, Gentlemen!

Now that I have had the chance to put a few rounds through it, I'm even more pleased! 

I only fired 15 rounds today because the small, old indoor range was filling up with more smoke than the exhaust system seemed able to handle ...  

Also, frankly, I decided that my standard load for my other .455 revolvers (effectively the British War Department specs for the MK I cartridge - i.e. 18  grains FF black powder well compressed behind a long-nosed hollowbase 265 gr bullet) was simply too stout to be very pleasant in this little revolver.  They produced very substantial recoil, stupendous muzzleflash ... and cylinder gap flash, for that matter ... and flattened primers, which also gave rise to some degree of safety concern.   

However, other than those minor details, it was an absolute blast ... both literally and figuratively!   

On the question of cartridges and bullets, here are some diagrams from "The Webley Story", comparing the various British service revolver cartridge bullets and cases.  For one thing, despite the different nomenclature, note that the .450, .476 and .455 cartridges actually all had a .455" case mouth diameter ... and all used .455 bullets (with the exception of the .476 Enfield Mark III bullet, which was "heeled" - but still inside-lubed on a .455" body diameter.)  Also, note that all   of the bullets in this ".455 family" were hollow based.  (Click on each thumbnail to enlarge.)

(The cartridges in the my original photos in this thread are .455 Webley Mk I's, by  the way .... well actually they are .455 Colt cases - but that was really just a North American commercial version of the Webley Mk I cartridge.)

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

Jack;   Of course you have your own copy of the WEBLEY STORY, I have to go to the Library to consult "mine".   

A good run down.  American developement was restricted because of the Rollin White patent, and had a lot of catch-up to do.  O course, once they got going there was no looking back.

[River City John]

Out of curiosity, what is the cutoff date for a firearm to be termed 'antique' and not subject to the restrictions? 100 years plus as in the lower 48?

[Irish Dave]

I believe its 1898 per ATF.

[RattlesnakeJack]

RCJ & ID:

Under Canadian law, a firearm must have been manufactured "before 1898" to qualify as an "antique", whereas the American law is worded "on or before December 31, 1898", I believe.  Just to make things that much more confusing, no doubt!

Our lawmakers complicated things a great deal more by including post-1897 manufactured matchlock, wheellock and flinlock long guns (i.e. including modern reproductions) within the  "antique" definition, but that does not extend to handguns, nor to post-1897 percussion lock firearms of either kind! 

So, we have the decidedly odd state of affairs where the following anomalies exist:

- I can acquire such cartridge revolvers as this one (and two others I have) which are arguably as effective and dangerous as any modern revolver, without any requirement to register, but a reproduction matchlock or flintlock handgun is not an antique, and must be registered!  Even pre-1898 semi-automatics are exempt from registration (provided they don't chamber one of the "bad" cartridges which take them out of the class - see below.)   

- the cartridge handgun exemption is based solely on date of manufacture, with only certain specified cartridge chamberings operating to "trump" the antique status - .22 short , long or long rifle rimfire, or any of the following centerfires:  32 Short Colt, 32 Long Colt, 32 Smith and Wesson, 32 Smith and Wesson Long, 32-20 Winchester, 38 Smith and Wesson, 38 Short Colt, 38 Long Colt, 38-40 Winchester, 44-40 Winchester, or 45 Colt.  (Notice the complete absence of any "metric" cartridges in this proscribed list!)   

- all of my reproduction percussion muzzle-loaders must be registered, but repro flintlocks are exempt ... even though the original percussion firearms of which the reproductions are exact copies are antiques.   

- I can (and do) freely own as "antiques" a variety of very effective single-shot centerfire rifles of pre-1898 manufacture - such things as Snider-Enfields, Martini-Henrys, Model 1871 Mauser, Trapdoor Springfield etc.,  provided they have a bore diameter of at least 8.3mm (0.326 771")  - note this antique status is not dependant in any way on a proscribed list of cartridges.
But if the rifle is a repeater (such as my M71/84 Mauser) then it is not an antique!   

(On the other hand, any pre-1898 rimfire rifle (except .22 short , long or long rifle) is an "antique", whether single shot or repeater ....       )

That is but a summary of the silly effect of our rules - and I haven't even mentioned shotguns!   

If you have a hard time believing that lawmakers could codify such a mess, check here:
http://www.cfc-cafc.gc.ca/bulletins/museums/bulletin4_e.asp