RM questions and concerns

[will52100]

Well I finaly got a replacement 1860 RM, the old one was in 44 colt with a 45 barrel   The replacement didn't have as nice a stocks but still not bad and is bar non the most accurate out of the box pistol I've ever owned, including a Browing hi power.  Shoots point of aim and I'm in love.

One concern came up when I went to clean it.  After cleaning put the cylinder back on the arbor and noticed a bit of rubbing that wasn't pressent when the gun was assembled.  I thought maybe the trigger spring and trigger gaurd screws were rubbing a bit so I smoothed up and posible burs, but it still rubed.  I now have most of the blueing off the high part of the engraving.  I put the barrel back on and it still rubbed.  Tapped the wedge in and it quit rubbing.  Took the wedge out and it rubs.  Took a closer look at the frame and the alignment pins visably upset the frame metal where they are pressed in.  I'm wondering if this is going to be an issue as this is going to be a main match pistol and will likely recieve many thousands of rounds through it. 

I'm not overly concerned about the damage to the blueing, but I don't want the sucker to come apart a thousand rounds from now.

My load for it, it's a 44 colt,  in black powder is 24 grains of Graf's 3f black powder,CCI magnum large pistol primmer, 200 grain big lube bullet.

Smokless is 6 grains of Unique with CCI large pistol primmer and 200 grain RNFP bullet lubed with liquid Alox.  6 grains of Unique is the starting load for 44 special, I couldn't find any Unique info for 44 colt. 

Both loads work well in my 72' open top, but it showes no sign of rubbing or such like the 60RM.

Should I send it back yet again or should it be fine?  The one it replaced didn't do this, but then it had the wrong cylinder for the barrel.



Thanks

[Fox Creek Kid]

Mine rubbed a little too & I had to relieve the water table a little. They are a tight fit.

[will52100]

so basicly your saying I have nothing to worry about?  How many rounds have you put through yours?  One complaint is that the blueing while it looks good isn't very durable and almost seems painted on, especialy in areas that arn't visable except when taken down, theres no blue.  I may wind up doing a rust blue latter on.

[Fox Creek Kid]

Take some crocus cloth & polish the inside bottom of the frame (water table). Some blue missing gives the gun character. After all, you want it to look like a man's pistol and not one owned by a piano player in a cathouse, right? 

[will52100]

True and one reason I at first wanted charcoal blue, but settled on regular to match my other guns.  Trust me, the blue that's on there now will wear pretty quick, it's not into the steel very well at all.

I polished the water table a bit with some wet/dry paper, but that realy didn't help much.  The thing is it doesn't rub with the barle and wedge in, takethe wedge out and it rubs.

[Fox Creek Kid]

The thing is it doesn't rub with the barle(sic) and wedge in, takethe wedge out and it rubs.

That's because the wedge, when it's in the arbor slot, regulates the headspace (along with the integral gas ring) and sets the cylinder back a smidgen. You don't shoot the gun with the barrel off or the wedge out. Relax, if it works perfectly w/ the wedge in then it's fine.

[Fox Creek Kid]

No Seth, it's just right. You want the wedge to do this. The arbor is not bent, the wedge is just camming the cylinder back a hair and shoring everything up. EVERYTHING IS OK!! Unknot your BVD's. 

[will52100]

Actualy it's setting the cylinder arbor up just a hair, I can hold the cylinder in by hand without the barrel and it still rubs.  Not much, just enough to feel and just enough to rub the blue off the high spots of the roll engraving.

I think I'll contact Cimmeron about it and ask them, though I'll probably leave it alone.  Like you said, I don't shoot it with the barrel and wedge off, and it's more accurate than any handgun I've ever owned, including real colts and browning and such, at least out of the box.

[Fox Creek Kid]

I give up.

[Fox Creek Kid]

The wedge, in tandem with the gas ring, regulates headspace. These Italian copies, as originals, are not machined to say the specs on a Freedom Arms $1500 revolver. Headspace is the mesurement between the back of the case head & the brecch face. There has to be enough for the cylinder to turn as well as cartridge ignition. The latter is abetted by firing pin length. A little "play", front to rear (technically called endshake) is OK if the cartridges go off. This can be regulated somewhat by the wedge & its respective depth on some guns. To get absolute zero lateral play is where a custom 'smith comes in & that costs money & with the type of shooting you're doing it's not worth it. You'd be dollars ahead to fit a new cylinder. Everything on a Colt wedge style revolver works in tandem. If you guys ask another question I'm sending a bill.    In conclusion, if the gun goes off everytime as well as functions then don't f%#* with it!

[Fox Creek Kid]

...perhaps you could explain to all of us why it is "correct" for the cylinder to drag the frame when the barrel is removed.

Because the barrel lug (the part where the pin holes are) snugs up everything in tandem with the wedge & the gas ring. They work in unison. Please buy a copy of D. Chicoines
"Gunsmithing Guns of the Old West" for professional explanations & photos. When the barrel is off there is nothing holding the cylinder in its CORRECT position except gravity and as it is a rebated cylinder it's probably sliding forward a smidgen & rubbing on the bottom of the frame (water table). THERE IS NOTHING wrong with this guys when the barrel is off. What matters is when the barrel is mounted and the wedge is in place. That is where it all "comes together". If so, then all is well in Smallville. Everything is tight on a '60 Army RM conversion as there is only so much room to work off the axis of the cylinder pin and still use the same percussion machining cuts on the frame for the cylinder. In layman's terms, they don't want to CAD machine another taller frame.

[Ottawa Creek Bill]

Guys...Guys....Guys....

All guns are not created equal. FCK is right in what he is trying to explain. I've had enough of these guns apart , and built enough of them from scratch and odd parts, to know that on SOME of them the arbor flexes a little but is solid when the wedge is inserted in the proper slot, some of them but not all will do this. There is nothng wrong with your revolver. If your particular revolver locks up properly and shoots where you want it, you're good to go.

Bill

[will52100]

Guys I apreciate your post, and the general consensis is that everything is fine and the gun won't send the barrel down range faster than the bullet.

The problem is that there is a .011" differance between the arbor and frame with the wedge in and the wedge out, that indicates a flexing arobor.  It's not much, but enough for the cylinder to drag on the upset metal of the frame where the alignment pins are pressed in.  I took a dremmal and removed a little of the high spots just a bit and it doesn't drag anymore.  I'll keep it and shoot it as I've been disapointed with Cimmeron lately, and the gun is extreamly accurate, and just keep an eye on it.  If the sucker comes apart in the near future I'll probably get anouther, but it WON'T be from Cimmeron.

My main concern was that with repeated firing the gun would fall apart.  Aparently I was worring over nothing.  I'll shoot it awhile then Rust blue it.