Help requested on Original Spencer Carbine

[ike-godsey]

Howdy!

Being new here, I hope that you guys could help me.
I am from Germany - a German gun collector - and I just get a original Spencer
carbine.

On the right side of the receiver, there are three markings. They look like this:

   *
R     M

The star indicates a "sun" or anything that should look like a sun. (see pic)

Since I believe this is NOT any US marking, nor is it the marking of a Frence
or German unit, I would like to know if you guys could help clearing the dust.

Thank you in advance.

ike

[Two Flints]

Ike,

Does your Spencer have a serial #?  How did you come by it?  Does it have a history of prior ownership?  It would be too easy to suggest that the R M stands for Roy Marcot, author of the book, Spencer Repeating Firearms, and that this particular Spencer is from his personal collection, yeah, too easy to suggest this! How about more information on your Spencer and more photos?

Thanks for posting!

Two Flints

[ike-godsey]

hi!

i got this carbine from a gun auction here in germany.

all since this pics are the ones shown in the auction - and the gun is still on its way to my house - i really do not have any number by now. but i will post them asap.
i got two more pic from the auction.

i a german book about colts 1873 saa revolver, there is a pis of a well used saa with some similar markings. someone suggested this could be "republica mexicana". does this sounds logical? i don't know. i do know in fact the US govt. sold surplus items to mexico for their revolution. but did they sold spencers too?

thanks.

[Two Flints]

Ike,

Let's wait on delivery of your Spencer.  Would like to see the serial #.  Check it out for other markings, too.

Stay in touch.

Two Flints

[Hell-Er High Water]

Ike,

You indeed do have a Spencer that was used by Mexico.  In my book "Mexican Military Arms Of The Cartridge Period" by James B. Hughes, Jr. published in 1968 (softbound) he lists this as the "Spencer M-1865 Carbine", 56-50 rimfire.  He notes that they were manufactured by The Burnside Rifle Co.  He then states that the serial number range indicates that they were purchased as U. S. surplus and given Mexican ownership marks.  

He shows a hand drawn picture of the "Sun" property mark and the R M exactly as you describe.

I don't know if this book is still in print or even if it is available used but you might try to find one.  It was published by Deep River Armory, Inc., 5700 Star Lane, Houston, Texas  77027.

Sounds like you found a great piece of history.  It would be interesting to know how it got to Germany and when.

HHW

[Two Flints]

Hi Ike,

Found this link for the book that Hell-er-High Water mentioned in the previous post.  The book seller is located in UK.  Scroll down to book # E56.

Two Flints

http://www.gunbooks.co.uk/cat-mil.cfm

gunbooks secondhand Books Firearms Gun&military weapons Prospect books(E56) MEXICAN MILITARY ARMS. THE CARTRIDGE PERIOD 1866 – 1967 James B. Hughes, Deep River Armory, 25cm x 17cm, 135 pages, full of line drawings, photographs ...http://www.gunbooks.co.uk/cat-mil.cfm

[ike-godsey]

thank you, i found the same link :-)

btw: roy m. marcot in his  book "Spencer Repeating Firearms" does not mention anything about the use of spencer carbines in mexico, nor does he show any markings on spencers used outside US.

ike

sorry, this was incorrect. marcot does show spencer marks on guns used outside US. see page126.

ike

[geo]

when you get the carbine remove the front stock (forepiece); the serial number will be on the bottom of the barrel in front of the forepiece screw.  be careful removing and replacing the forepiece. the wood is old and soft (i have banged mine up; but the the carbine is so old who can tell?).there is a web site in the u.s. for locating (approximently - sp.?) the serial number.that will help i.d. your carbine. i think if you just key in "spencer serial numbers" you will get pathfinder. good luck. geo.

[Two Flints]

Thanks Geo, Ike, this is the link that Geo mentioned above.  Just type in the serial # of your Spencer.

http://armscollectors.com/srs/lookup_spencer.php

Two Flints

[ike-godsey]

hi folks,

@ HHW: thank you for your assistance. i already found the book:-)

@geo: thank you, that is a good advise :-)

@two flints: thanks - nice to see that you guys are really willing to help - that makes everything a lot easier esp. if one sits in germany and most things are very hard to get and to track down.

finaly the spencer came in today. serial # 1986 - the barrel, forward of the receiver reads "1865" but a "sun" and "R M" is stamped over it, so all i can read is "865". for a model 1865 spencer carbine it has the correct rear sight (according to Marcots book). it has a six grove, 22" barrel.

does that help?

ike

[ike-godsey]

ok guys,

here are some additional information about the spencer carbine:

top of system reads:

SPENCER REPEATING
RIFLE CO. BOSTON MASS.
PAT'D MARCH 6 1860

serial# as stated abvove 1986, matching on receiver and barrel (thanks geo!!)
barrel is 22" long, .50 caliber, 6 groves. barrel is marked "1865 " - this might be "M 1865" but since the sun and R M stamped over it, it is hard to read.
there are no visuable army markings on it.
under the barrelband (which has NO sling-swivel) two "P" are stamped in the barrel, the second one of smaller size.
on the underside, at the trigger carrier, behind the last stock-screw, there is a "W" visuable.

here is my conclusion:
from what i can say to this carbine right now, and according to the little i know, plus the facts that are wirtten in roy m. marcot's book, i believe this carbine is one of the hybrid model 1860 carbines, as stated in marcots book on page 81,top left of the page.
all detais he mentioned are matching with my spencer carbine, except for the "M 1865" stamp on top of the barrel.

what do you guys think?

[Two Flints]

Ike,

Tried to research your Spencer with the serial # you provided  # 1986.  Your serial # fits in between the serial numbers provided on what was returned to me. 

1804 - R - 100064 - CO E 148TH PENNA VOL INF -
1880 - R - 022563 - 7TH INDEP CO OHIO VOL SS -
1901 - C - 000064 - CO B 13TH OHIO VOL CAV -
1919 - R - 072763 - 1ST MICH VOL INF TO COL HAGNER -
1919 - R - 072763 - RETURNED TO SPENCER FOR REPAIR -
1939 - R - 042264 - CO D 5TH NY VOL CAV -
1958 - R - 040063 - CO E 72ND IND VOL INF -
1973 - R - 100064 - CO E 148TH PENNA VOL INF -
1978 - R - 64 - CO H 11TH KY VOL CAV -

***1986 - Ike's Spencer Serial #

2044 - R - 63 - 6TH INDEP CO OHIO VOL SS -

Spencers manufactured before and after your serial # Spencer 1986 were rifles as designated by the R.  Maybe your Spencer was returned, and modified to accept a shorter barrel.

Two Flints

[ike-godsey]

@two flints:

thank you for your observation, but i don't think that is correct.

first, the serial number of my spencer is close to the one you mentioned, which was used at a cavalry unit. i do believe that cav. units used carbines, not rifles.
secondly, if the factory changed the barrel of my spencer, why not to a .50 caliber 20" standard for the M 1865 carbine? the barrel on my spencer is 22" long, .50 caliber.
thirdly, the lettering of the serial number on both barrel and receiver are the same, so the gun is 100% factory original.

i go along with my first thoughts, it is the hybrid type of carbine made between the M 1860 and the M 1865 models.
as stated by marcot, page 81 (upper left) and the serials of these hybrid carbines are in the low M 1865 range!
marcot writes less than 2000 - the number of my spencer carbine is 1986.

no worries.
ike

[Arizona Trooper]

That all sounds right. Only very early M-1865 carbines have the 22 inch barrel, which would agree with your serial number. Sounds like an interesting Spencer!

[ike-godsey]

thanks :-)

could we go back to the original topic?
what about those "R M" markings?
does anyone else know anything about it?

[Arizona Trooper]

RM is probably República Mexico. On serial numbers, there are three overlapping ranges from 1 to ~25,000. You have to be careful using SRS. The reports Two Flints sites are all M-1860 rifles, except sn 1901, which is reported as a carbine. It's either a mis-reported serial number or a rifle reported as a carbine. Both of which happened. M-1860 carbines start in the 9000 sn range. Both Burnside and Spencer made M-1865s start with sn 1, so an SRS date after March of 1865 could be a Spencer M-1860, Spencer M-1865 or Burnside M-1865. Before that date, it would have to be an M-1860. Most of the Spencer made M-1865s below sn ~2500 are rifles. I believe these were made on a Mass. state contract, but I'm still tracking that one down. Most of these rifles do have military inspection markings. Some Spencer made M-1865 carbines are in the low number range. Those were delivered in March of '65 and have the 22" barrels. I suspect that the 22 inch barrels were cut back from rifle barrels that didn't pass inspection, or from M-1860 carbine barrels that hadn't been bored yet. I have one of these, in the 2200 sn range that positivly has an armory cut back rifle barrel. 

Ike, yours probably sat in storage until sold off to Mexico. Most of the late deliveries were never issued. Hartley & Graham were big buyers of surplus in the 1870s, including brand new Spencers. They sold mainly to France, for the Franco-Prussian War, but also to Mexico and South America. It's interesting that the one you found came from Mexico rather than the more likely route of France through Prussia.

[ike-godsey]

thnaks fors this detailed information! its great!

Ike, yours probably sat in storage until sold off to Mexico. Most of the late deliveries were never issued. Hartley & Graham were big buyers of surplus in the 1870s, including brand new Spencers. They sold mainly to France, for the Franco-Prussian War, but also to Mexico and South America. It's interesting that the one you found came from Mexico rather than the more likely route of France through Prussia.

according to spencers used in the Franco-Prussian War, a friend of mine in my neighborhood has a well used spencer carbine with a german proofmark between the receiver and the rear sight on top of the barrel. this proofmark was used from 1891 on,to be stamped on all arms that belonged to the Prussia. we do believe that this spencer was sold from the US to Frence and used by their troops and captured by German troops to be stored in their arsenals. in 1891 all arsenal arms then have been tested and marked.

ike