Hey Matts Basterson

[Camille Eonich]

I was reading your post up in the From the Sidewalk on CAS Recruiting and I just wanted to make a couple of comments about some of your gun choices and getting started cheaper.

First there is no reason why you can't start with a pair of .38s.  You can get a very decent load in .38 with very little recoil for your wife.  I can send you some load data for her.  Second, although an SxS I would highly recommend that you get your lady a 97.  The SxSs have more felt recoil with the same loads than a '97 does.  Yes I know this from experience.  Also the '97 is much easier to get up to speed on that an SxS.  Get her a 12 guage and yes, get the stock cut down to fit her.  You can use a gun with a shorter stock if you have to but make her happy from the get go.  You can cut the stock a little shorter and put a nice recoil pad on the end of it.  Don't rely on some contraption that straps onto her.

Get her some light loads for the shotgun too.  Winchester feather lights or less.  Less would be some type of reload.  I can get you data on that too.  Get the shotgun worked on.  Have the forcing cone opened up to reduce the felt recoil even more.

Don't buy her a '92 rifle.  I'll get arguments here but trust me, the length of the action will cause her a lot of frustration and disappointment.  Again, get a rifle to fit her to start with.  You can adjust until you can buy your own.

Get her girl leather.  Girl leather is cut different that boy leather and will fit her curves better.  Also a three inch belt that does not taper in the front wears better and is more comfortable.  Don't let her buy leather without at least trying one WITH guns in the holsters.

Now about shooting....You can shoot traditional style, two handed, using both your left and right hands as your strong hand if you are comfortable with that.  However, if you do have one dominant hand that you use for shooting and you draw your off gun correctly there really is no transisition.  For instance I am right handed and I don't use a cross draw.  When I draw my left gun the thumb is over the back strap, the index finger goes in front of the trigger guard and the other finger are back where they are going to be when I shoot.  The gun comes up out of the holster and when it meets the right hand they just come together since everything on the lect hand is where it needs to be to start out.

I strongly suggest that if your wife is going to shoot traditional style and she has one strong hand then you find someone who can show her how to draw the left gun properly and have her practice the technique before she ever shoots her first macth.  In fact I highly recommend a lot of dry fire practice before shooting your first match anyway.  It gives a certain amount of comfort and confidence that will come in very handy on that first stage when the timer goes beep.



Oh and those shotgun targets.....believe it or not you will miss them.   


Hope this helps some.

[Matts BasterSon SASS 74843]

Camille,

Thank you for taking the time to put this together for us.

The .38's seems like the way to go, all things considered. Any load data you can provide would be greatly appreciated, as we're going to be doing our own reloads. I read an article (or ad) here on Trail Boss powder, and that seemed to address what I thought were some valid concerns about light loading and having problems igniting the top of the powder (as the cartridge lies horizontal, the powder doesn'r cover the primer). Any thoughts or experience with it? The article claimed it poured very easily, also as the grains are donut shaped.

I personally would love a '97. My only concern as far as my wife with either the '87 or a '97 was the weight and the requirement to rack or lever rounds. The added weight would help in felt recoil at 12ga., and with lighter loads, so much the better. And less recoil than light loads in a 20 ga. sxs, you think? I'll see if we can't get her a chance to shoot a '97 and see what she thinks. I received your same good advice on getting the initial set up of guns to fit her, and I'll certainly do that, thank you!

Is a forcing cone like an internal choke? If not, how do 12 ga featherlites or other light loads do on knockdown targets? Any concerns there?

As a side concern...don't '97's have about a million moving parts? How are they to strip and clean?

We have our eyes on a '94 Marlin in .38 for her. The action is short and smooth, and we've both fired it. She's confident with it. I wasn't able to see her too well when she was shooting, but it looked like the stock will be a good comprimise, and the recoil was nil; she had no memory of it, and she'd never shot a long arm before.

Excellent points on the girl leather, too. I've seen some and it is significantly different, no doubt about that. Thank goodness for the differences! 

We have some new friends that have offered to provide some initial "CAS unique" training for us both, so we'll have a chance to reherse plenty. And I think my dry fire to loaded fire ratio is probably 25:1. The actual trigger pull on a real cartridge or shell to me is the fun "dessert" after the hours of procedure and muscle memory drilling. We'll both have several dozen hours in the training books before we ever step onto a range or stage "for real".

Thank you again for your time and advice. I want this to be as fun for her as it will be for me, and an experienced woman's perspective is invaluable. 

(Somebody's gonna have something to say about "experienced women", you hide and watch!  )

[Camille Eonich]

If you get a good slick 97 she won't have any problem racking it.  Just let her know that she needs to be aggressive with it so that it goes all the way home and then ejects well.  And yes the 12 gauge will give less felt recoil that the 20.  The forcing cone is the place where the shot in the case of the shotgun, actually starts to enter the barrel.  If it's opened up a bit and lengthened then the transition is smoother.  If you can find a solid frame 97 they are a little lighter than the take downs.  They do cost more generally though.  There is an ad in the mercantile here...welll hold on a minute..found it  http://www.classicoldwestarms.com/shotguns.html  This is a CAS City vendor and he has tons of 97s.  You might contact him.  There's also a classified here now http://www.cascity.com/classifieds/showproduct.php?product=676 with good price on a 97. 

Cut the barrel down until it's barely legal to take more weight off it.  Some say that you don't need them but if you feel as though you do then a good smith can put a screw in choke in for you.


There shouldn't be any problem with the featherweigts taking down shotgun targets unless they just get missed. 


*Camille steps back to wait for the cracks on the experienced woman but*

[Matts BasterSon SASS 74843]

Thank you, Camille! 

That's twice though that you've talked about missing targets with the scattergun...I've always thought that shootin' them was a freebie. Guess I have a lot to learn, huh? 

[Camille Eonich]

Matts we went and watched several matches before participating and we just laughed and laughed because we couldn't believe that people could actually miss those shotgun targets that close.


CAS can be very humbling.    


Hey have you seen those big huge man hole covers that they use for targets.  We have some here that are probably three and a half feet in diameter.  You can miss those too.    Even from 8 yards away.   

[Matts BasterSon SASS 74843]

I don't doubt that it can be humbling...I used to take my "enter and clear" team out every week to do the combat drill shooting, and we had a rule that anyone that "threw" a round - hit outside the lines on a silluette paper target - had to buy everyone else a soda. We'd keep score and pay off once a month. I bought a lot more soda than I drank...I think CAS could be even tougher, as there are lots of people watching...those "big targets" can get very very small when the pressure's on...We used to make people do windsprints and pushups before they sarted their runs through the scenario, to simulate the fear and adrenaline rush, and cut the targets down to 4"X7" (@ 10yds and less, handgun) to make people REALLY focus on the target and accuracy, or make a rule that certain targets would only be scored if they were headshots...the next day, I'd go out with a group of patrolmen, and couldn't hit water if I fell out of a boat...

Matts we went and watched several matches before participating and we just laughed and laughed because we couldn't believe that people could actually miss those shotgun targets that close.


CAS can be very humbling.    


Hey have you seen those big huge man hole covers that they use for targets.  We have some here that are probably three and a half feet in diameter.  You can miss those too.    Even from 8 yards away.   

[Stump Water]

MB,

Powder:  Had real good luck with Red Dot powder in 38 & 45.  Didn't use anywhere near a case-full in either cartridge, yet always get consistent bangs.  Doesn't seem to be position or temperature sensitive.  Did switch to a magnum primer in the 45, but that's because I was seeing unburnt powder.  I'm still seeing unburnt powder, but not as much.  I'm hoping that the Lee factory crimp die that I just bought will fix that and I can go back to regular primers... because mag. primer can be hard to get sometimes.

97 shotgun: They don't have a million moving parts.  Just 100,000.     Really... there's not that many parts.  If you can take down and reassemble a 1911 then you can do a 97.  Fact is, they really don't need to be taken down very often.  We've been shooting for three years and I disassembled our 3 97's for the first time last month.  Not because they needed it, mind you, just because they've been shot every weekend for three years and I figured it was time.

[Matts BasterSon SASS 74843]

So Stump,

What do you clean on the '97 after each shoot? The barrel, chamber, and receiver? That's it? 

[Camille Eonich]

I ain't Stump but yeah that's pretty much it.

[litl rooster]

Matts we went and watched several matches before participating and we just laughed and laughed because we couldn't believe that people could actually miss those shotgun targets that close.


CAS can be very humbling.    


Hey have you seen those big huge man hole covers that they use for targets.  We have some here that are probably three and a half feet in diameter.  You can miss those too.    Even from 8 yards away.   

Words of wisdom..............I blew a clean match on one of them giagundo round targets this past summer.

[Judge Lead]

When my dear wife uses her .357 Birdsheads, I load up some .38 Spls with 125 grn projectiles. 1 grain less powder than the 357's loaded into the rifle. Far less recoil, doesn't hit as hard in the hands and is easier to keep on target for her.

Shotgun has been shortened to suit her and a load lighter than Featherlites has been developed and will knock down any target if she does her bit correctly and also has far less recoil. To the extent that this load is going to be used by a lady who has only recently started here and, although she is shorter than Molly (my wife), is more solidly built, finds it more to her liking than anything else she has tried.

Now to target size. You were talking about shotgun misses. We have an annual shoot here called Silverado. It is hosted by a club at Broken Hill in New South Wales. The reason for Silverado, it is a mining town and has had some VERY large Silver deposits found, but I digress.
There is a target used that they call the Barn Door. In the vicinity of 6' high and 10' long. It has been missed with pistols (at std pistol distances) and rifles - so there is NO target too big, it can't be missed. 

Yes CAS does bring you back down to earth, but we enjoy it 

Follow the advise given here by Camille and Stump. They know what they are talking about and from the limited dealings (only over the internet) I have had with them, would be great mentors.

Enjoy the sport. You will get out of it more than you put in and meet some GREAT people along the way.

Kindest regards.

[Matts BasterSon SASS 74843]

Hey, Judge,

Thanks for the encouragement! I'm not the brightest bulb in the pack, but I've never been blind the advice of those that know what they're talking about! We've gotten some great advice from these folks and intend to follow it! 

I know targets large and small can be missed. I've done it many times - including a man-sized sillouette at 7'. Although I am most nervous with others watching, that's also when I do my best - probably because I want so desperately not to embarrass myself!

Speaking of target sizes, what are the smallest targets for each gun group you've seen in comptetition?

[Stump Water]

Smallest targets?  I've seen some really small "bonus" targets. 

But, in the main target array, about the smallest I've seen would be 6" shotgun, 8" rifle, and 10" pistol.  Don't see many that small though.

[Matts BasterSon SASS 74843]

Yer Stumped Watery-ness, 

how small were those bonus targets? And at what range? Did you have to choose to shoot the bonus target instead of a regular target?

Also, for the sizes noted, what kind of ranges for each gun?

[Stump Water]

Have seen 3 & 4" circles for bonus (don't get me started on "bonus" targets. )

Bonuses (boni ?) are usually in addition to the regular target string.  Sometimes and option, sometimes not. Depends on how the stage is written.

Usually standard ranges for the gun.  Sometimes rifle boni are way out yonder.

Way out yonder in cowboy = 50-60 yards.