1860 Conversion gate, spring and indent installed, 10/03/2006

Ottawa Creek Bill · October 03, 2006, 01:33:20 PM

Well this Saga continues............this morning I installed the loading gate, the loading gate spring and indent on the recoil ring. The only thing I have left to do to the ring is intall the floating fireing pin. I have to drill and tap a hole for the lug in the barrel for the ejector rod assembly, sweat in a new and higher front sight and this baby will be ready to finish.

I've already got a hammer that I've faced and ready to go. I may go ahead and blue this gun instead of nickle plating it, but make it look like it is six or seven years old. I took these photos outside under natural light, I think they turned out better then the photos I posted yesterday.

Oh, If this gets too boring let me know.....
Any questions about how I made the parts for this gun, feel free to ask.

Bill

Right click on the image with you right mouse button and click image and it will enlarge the photo a little

Major 2 · October 03, 2006, 02:21:35 PM

Seth said a mouth full !

WOW.....WOW.....WOW !!!

Rapid Lee · October 03, 2006, 03:59:40 PM

I'll echo that...we really appreciate you taking the time to photograph and describe what you've done. I hope to see the finished product in the flesh!

By the way FWIW, I would vote for you to finish it in nickle!

Rapid

Black River Smith · October 03, 2006, 05:50:26 PM

That is really nice once again. That recoil pad just stands out as 1st Model Richards. The metal work is beautiful Bill

Delmonico · October 03, 2006, 06:08:30 PM

Are you sure you ain't really Cherokee Bill?

Heard he was pretty good at buildin' those.

Ottawa Creek Bill · October 03, 2006, 07:11:09 PM

Del,
How about Ned Christie, Cherokee Gunsmith gone Bad??!!

Rapid Lee,
Yea, I think I'm gonna spend the bucks and have it nickled. If everything goes as well for the rest of the week as it has Monday and Tuesday, I'll have this done and shooting this weekend.

If its working properly, I'll strip it down and take it over to Gander Mountain and have them send it to their finisher to have it nickled, $110.00 if you have it polished and ready to go, and about two weeks turn around.

I'm gonna order those Ivory Grips from Buffalo Arms out in Idaho. They've got the nice ones that look a little aged but not too much.

Bill

Delmonico · October 03, 2006, 07:24:05 PM

Works for me, I'll call the guys out to Ft. Kearny to bring the cannon.

I'd nickel it.

Fox Creek Kid · October 04, 2006, 01:04:46 AM

Bill, how hard is it to machine the "lipped" 1st Model conversion ring? How'd you machine the area for the integral sight? Also, when the Uberti 2nd Model comes out it'd be pretty easy to just remove the 2nd Model ring then machine a new 1st Model ring to replace it & POOF: 1st Model Richards.

Ottawa Creek Bill · October 04, 2006, 07:12:04 AM

FCK,
Its not hard at all....I have a 10" rotary table for my mill that has a MT3 (morse taper #3) in the center of it. I have a fixture that I tuned a MT3 taper out of 4" 4140 bar stock on my lathe and this is afixed to the table.

This fixture has the area for the loading gate milled into it. I hardened it in my heat treat furnace to minimize the mill cutting into it. The process is I bolt the blank for the ring to this fixture, I mill the lip, flip it over and bolt it down to the fixture. Mill one side of the ring up to the integral site area, then do the other side the same way. Cut the recess for the laoding gate, then the projection for the floating firing pin, then mill the slot for the hand, and then finally mill the saddle area out (the area that sits on the frame)

This is the best I can do not having an original to look at off the gun, and, I got all the specs from the McDowell book. I can't make these to sell, I'm not a licensed gunsmith, just an old tool and die maker having some fun....

As far as the Uberti being easy to change into a 1st. model Richards??? I wouldn't want to say without seeing one in person, if they are like thier R&Ms, the ejector rod housing tube will be quite a bit undersized and for me that just doesn't look right. On the oringinal 1st. model Richards the tube and the rod were pretty hefty, the ejector rod was almost a 1/4 " (.250) in diameter. Plus the cylinders on the Uberti conversions tend to be way oversize thats why I made my own using McDowell's book. I'm gonna send this one to Kenny Howell to have the roll engraving put on it, $40.00 plus shipping.

I'll have this one at the NCOWS Convention if you want to see it next year....

Bill

Major 2 · October 04, 2006, 07:39:11 AM

Bill

Now I just gotta go to the NCOWS convention

( I hope to go , to represent Cracker CowHunters )
If nothing else to see your gun in person..

Will you remove the MODEL 1860 ARMY CAL. 44 from the barrel ?

And if votes count

Nickel is mine vote too....

Ottawa Creek Bill · October 04, 2006, 08:48:12 AM

QuoteWill you remove the MODEL 1860 ARMY CAL. 44 from the barrel ?

Major,
I'm debating that right now......Its in pretty deep.....What I may do is polish it down to look nice and leave it, I just wish it was on top of the barrel and not the side.......but I think its appropriate. Thats the only markings left on the barrel....

Yea....I'm gonna nickle it. I'll put everything together this weekend, make sure its timed properly take a couple of before (before nickle and cylinder engraving) photos and as soon as I get the cylinder back from engraving, ship the gun off for the nickle job....I'll still have to fit those ivory grips to the grip frame but thats the easy part...

Bill

Major 2 · October 04, 2006, 10:29:49 AM

I gotta ask you about the Ivory's

I bought a set of Buffalo Bros. aged with a crack ( I like Ivory content in polymer idea )

so they arrived and the left panel is fine as is the center wedge , but the right side was a bit undersized...
... on my 2nd Gen Colt. ( grips are for a Uberti ) length is fine ,it the right side that's narrow.
I fitted them anyway, most photo of originals show a bit of shrinkage too...

Looks great on my R&D Cyl. 30 year old 2nd Gen. BP Colt.

Now you mention, Buffalo Arms Grips ... I viewed that site and didn't find Ivory grips for other than Rugers & SAA , Lightnings.

I want a set for my USPFA Richards ... but I want a better fit .... Are The Buffalo Arms Grips made by Buffalo Bros ?

IMHO... I'd remove the marks

Crow Scout · October 04, 2006, 10:44:20 AM

Bill,

I have a ton of questions but I'll try to keep them brief. Would it be necessary to make a new cylinder for a Uberti 1860 Army if I were going to chamber it to 44 colt? Also, do you think I could build a 1st Model Richards from a Uberti 1851 Navy? I'm assuming that the dimensions will need to be scaled down a bit. I can make a new cylinder but I'm really hoping I can use the existing one.

I have a pair of Navies that I'd like to convert. The machinery part isn't a problem. I have access to CNC as well as manual machines. I would just like to get your thoughts on this. Thanks in advance.

BTW everything is really looking nice.

Any help is greatly appreciated.

Ottawa Creek Bill · October 04, 2006, 03:25:08 PM

Major,
The new Buffalo Arms catolog #26, has slightly aged Ivory grips specifically for the 1860 frame on page C31. They look real nice.

Quote from: Crow Scout on October 04, 2006, 10:44:20 AM
Bill,

I have a ton of questions but I'll try to keep them brief. Would it be necessary to make a new cylinder for a Uberti 1860 Army if I were going to chamber it to 44 colt? Also, do you think I could build a 1st Model Richards from a Uberti 1851 Navy? I'm assuming that the dimensions will need to be scaled down a bit. I can make a new cylinder but I'm really hoping I can use the existing one.

I have a pair of Navies that I'd like to convert. The machinery part isn't a problem. I have access to CNC as well as manual machines. I would just like to get your thoughts on this. Thanks in advance.

BTW everything is really looking nice.

Any help is greatly appreciated.

Crow Scout,
First,
No I wouldn't use the Navies for a 1st. model richards....you would have to rebate the frame (cut the step into it), and thats just something extra you'd have to contend with. Then, once you've chambered the 36 cal. cylinders to .44 colt, you would have to rebate the rear of the cylinder to match the rear step of the frame, cut new bolt stops in it, advance and recut the ratchet to where the teeth are between the cylinder chambers.

So, if you've got to do all this, why not make a new rebated cylinder and use an existing 1860 frame? Plus, the percussion cylinders on all these new reproductions are cast steel and you have the opportunity to use 4140 or 4150 armory steel when you make the new one......

If you use an existing 1860 Army reproduction percussion cylinder, you'll need to run your chambers at a slight angle in relation to the arbor to avoid cutting the chamber into the bolt stops of the cylinder....its easier to make a new one. You can add about 15/1000s' to the over all outside diameter for strength, chamber it straight and still have plenty of thickness in the cylinder wall to cut the cylinder stops and not have them paper thin....

Non of the items I've described is hard if you've got machinist skills...there are just easier ways to do it then others...I would suggest that if you undertake this project, get McDowell's book, it will just about have all the information you need. If you've done any tool or die work, you'll be able to use his information to sit down draw out, and make your own fixtures for the job.

It sounds like you've done some machine work, so what you'll need is a good lathe, Mill, indexing machine, rotary table, the bigger the better and all the tooling necessary... drafting skills and a CAD program. The CNC would work if you had the proper program to set it up.

Bill

Crow Scout · October 04, 2006, 04:21:21 PM

Bill,

I just re-read my last post and I was far from clear. Sorry about that. I was planning on converting my Navies to 38 Long Colt. It still sounds like making my own cylinders is still the way to go. I was hoping that I could just convert the existing cylinders but I'm a bit leary about the casting issues you mentioned.

The reference to the Armies was for the next project. The cylinder walls on the Uberti Armies looked a bit thin for converting to 44 Colt so that's why I asked about that conversion. Sorry for the confusion on that.

I picked up McDowell's book a couple of weeks ago. I was lucky enough to find it at the library. In fact if anyone else in the Denver area is interested there were 2 copies at the Denver Public Library when I picked it up. It seems that you are right about finding almost all of the dimensions there. I had to jump around a bit to find them but it was good reading none-the-less.

I'm not a machinist as I'm still learning but I'm lucky enough to have a father that is. He also teaches machine shop part time now that he's retired.

Thanks again for the help

Ottawa Creek Bill · October 04, 2006, 05:11:21 PM

Crow Scout,
The confusion was mine, I thought you wanted to convert the navy frames to army frames. There never was, I believe, a Richards conversion of the navy colt, these were all richard/masons conversions, and there were four different types of those.

If you are going to chamber the navy for .38 long colt you should have plenty of wall thickness in the chamber to do it......good luck with your project.

Bill