Load????

[Four-Eyed Buck]

Won another brass frame '51 this weekend. It's in .44. My question for the learned denizens here is how much BP would be non-stressing load for this piece???..........Buck

[44caliberkid]

Anywhere from 17 grains (2 or 3F) to 22 grains of either powder.

[Dick Dastardly]

Whut the Kid said.

Just make sure the ball sits snug on the powder on the low end and that the ball clears the frame on the high end.  17 grains sounds just fine.  More if you need a mite more speed.  For SASS matches, stay lite but make sure they are consistant.

DD-DLoS

[Mason Stillwell]

I shoot 15 grains of Real BP in all my C&B guns. ROA's down to the Brass frame 51's. No need for unneeded stress on the old design.


Mason

[Four-Eyed Buck]

Thanks  all. Are the tales about those frames stretching true? I want to shoot both of them, but am a little leery about trying it at a match.
How about the nipples? These are both Pietta's, but about ten years or so apart. The older one seems to like no. 10 size caps, that much I know. It also has languished in the safe for quite a few years because when I did start to work with it, the full cock notch failed. It's fixed now, but just never got around to trying it out.
I have the right size lead balls, powder & stuff, but don't have a flask. Any suggestions on a flask to purchase?.....................Buck

[Driftwood Johnson]

Are the tales about those frames stretching true?

Yes, they are true. The first handgun I ever owned was a brass framed Navy in 44 cal, just like you are talking about. This one was made by Uberti, with the classic Uberti trademark on it, but sold by Navy Arms. I bought it brand new direct from the factory showroom in Ridgefield NJ when I was knee high to a grasshopper in 1968. I borrowed my Dad's car to run down to the showroom to buy it.

In those days, nobody ever mentioned anything about brass frames stretching. Conventional wisdom was load about 30 grains of powder, stuff in the ball and slather Crisco over the ball. Wonder Wads had not been invented yet, but that's another story.

Anyway, I used to wander the wilds of Northern New Jersey with that old C&B, and later hid it in my suitcase when I went away to college in NY state. I used to wander the woods in NY state with it too.

Years later I never could figure out why it was shooting so doggone high. I could barely keep it on paper, it shot a good 12" high at 50 feet or so. Finally, one day I noticed that when I drove the wedge in to snug up the barrel/cylinder gap just right, there was a decided 'up slope' to the barrel. The only way I could get the barrel to point straight ahead was to leave much too wide a gap. Too many 30 grain loads over the years had stretched the frame. I sure wish there had been somebody around back then to tell me.

I still have my old C&B, but she's just a wall hanger now.

Chances are, a 36 cal Navy would not stretch so badly, as the ball would be lighter, causing less recoil and not causing the frame to jump back quite so violently.

[Delmonico]

I know a bunch of folks who buy those cheap at gunshows when someone has stretched the frame a bit and they use them for blank guns in ren-actments.  15 grains of powder and the rest vermiculite makes a great blank load and are cheaper the cartridge blanks like 5 in 1's.  By blacking the brass they look fine from a distance also if you don't like the brass. 

[Arcey]

On the stretchin' part, hell I don't even know who made that cheap l'il all brass framed Navy I got.  It's a .36, always loaded with about 15 grains 'n a round ball.  If it's stretched it ain't done so to the point it's showin' or effectin' function.  Thinkin' if ya go with just what it takes to shoot CAS she'll last ya a good while.

If I had two I weren't real sure of, I'd get twelve new nipples of the same manufacturer.  That way they'd surely take the same caps.

If ya want a flask ta look period correct, can't help ya.  If ya want pre-measured charges ta load with, I can.  Get yerself a fistful of empty .223 brass then some 7/32" automotive neoprene vacuum caps from the auto parts store.  Dump the charge in the case 'n close it with the caps.  When yer loadin' the cylinder, the l'il smokeless rifle case has a built in funnel.  'N, ya ain't holdin' onto a hand grenade full ah Black Powder.

[Delmonico]

'N, ya ain't holdin' onto a hand grenade full ah Black Powder.

Just an M-80   Sorry Arcey, I'm feelin' onery today.

[Arcey]

Be as 'onery' iz ya want.  Ya wanna hold on ta an M-80?

[Delmonico]

No, I always build them with long fuses,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,er never mind.

[Arcey]

Kinda the point.  I don't either.  Lesser of evils.

Doan wanna hold on ta an M-80 but if I had my druthers I'd rather than a grenade.  'N ya kindah got a choice.........

I'll n'ermind now.......

[Paladin UK]

Regardin Brass frames.....

My `little ol Spiller `n Burr is `bout 12 yrs now .....its Annie `O`s most favourite smokepole, she regularly shoots `bout 50rds through it 19gns Holy Black `n wad under a ball



Shes still as tight as a drum! (the Spiller ) and I reckon shell go on ferever provided she aint abused by stokin her up to the gunnels, aint needed, `n  after all, at most of our CAS shoots were only shootin at paper `n occasionally ringin steel 

Paladin (What lurvs tha Hooooly Black  ) UK

[Driftwood Johnson]

A top strap frame, like the one pictured is naturally stronger than a Colt style open top frame. There is simply more metal there. I stand by my comments that over charges will stretch an open topped design, like the 44 cal 'Navy' in question.

In addidtion, read Mike Venturino's book Shooting Lever Guns of the Old West. In it he describes a brass framed Henry that was stretched and ruined by shooting just one box of high powered ammo through it. That's why Colt used steel in their guns. They never made brass frames. Brass is relatively soft and maleable. Most of the brass framed revolvers were made in the Confederacy because they could not get a good supply of steel, and because they did not have the machine tools to work it. What little steel thay could get, they reserved for cylinders and barrels. Steel is tougher on tools than brass, and it was 150 years ago too.

[Adirondack Jack]

To add to what Driftwood has said, at the time of the very first revolvers, steel technology was not wonderful, and there were few who could manage to control hardness, etc.  Not long before, they'd gone through an era where iron and rudimentary steel cannon had routinely blown up, and they reverted back to bronze.

Brass and bronze were well unerstood, and though limited, were much easier to control in the making.  Of course the improved steel making and use thereof came along rapidly, but it had to have time to proliferate.

[Noz]

Palladin, That's a pretty gun!

[Dick Dastardly]

I personally like the looks of brass on a C&B handgun.  My old ROAs have brass back straps and brass squareback trigger guards.  I think they're handsome guns.  But, the steel parts are made like a Super Blackhawk.  Yup, they're tough.

If I had a brass frame C&B pistol, I'd simply follow the manufacturers recommended loads.  Doing it that way, I doubt that they would destroy themselves.  One thing about brass and steel in the same gun, dissimiliar metals tend to wear to a smoothness that's hard to do with a single metal.  Brass and steel get along real good with the smooth feeling.

DD-DLoS

[Paladin UK]

Fer NozzleRag.....

Why thank you pard

She started off life a good 2ins longer `n had a brass bead forsight!!



Giving her a `Haircut` definatly made her smoother`n lighter fer Annie `O`s small hands

Paladin (What lurvs Annie `O`  ) UK