"Roll crimped" Magtechs tested with disconcerting results - whut's up here pards

[Goatlips]

Hey Pards a week or so ago litl Rooster had a thread 'bout Magtech BP SG shells -

http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,10626.0.html

...where I posted a pitcher of my new loads and said I'd report any problems.  Well I had problems!  They slid into my mule ear right nice and fired off just fine, but they wouldn't come out of them chambers!  The extractor skipped over the rims and it seemed the brass had just soldered itself to the chambers.  Had to knock 'em out with a range rod.  If you'll recall I tried annealing the brass, then loaded extra wads to bring the column right to the rim, them I curled them over with a reducer and they looked right pretty.  After firing they looked like this!  (see below and click on 'em)

What happened here? Seems to be a healthy blowback streak along one side that jammed the cases in tight and surrounded the rims.  Too much powder (3 1/2 drans)?  Too much wadding along with the roll crimp?  Could annealing have had anything to do with it?  What's the white powder? Old glue residue? The pictures were taken six hours after firing, but they looked the same upon being hammered out of the chambers.  There's gotta be an obvious answer but I can't puzzle it out yet.  Would appreciate your thoughts.

Goatlips

[Adirondack Jack]

Well, lets see.  First ya had a STIFF load.

then ya had SOFT cases.

Add the roll crimp (added resistance), and yer chamber pressures were too high for the shells to bounce back and shuck normally.

In any event, I'd say try only annealing 1/2 inch of the shell (lotsa water in a pan, just warm the mouth with the torch).  try less powder, and try only a LITTLE crimp.  Also I don't see why ya NEED to build the column all the way if yer goal with the crimp is easy feeding.  Ya could build a normal column, glue in yer overshot like normal, then just bump the critter with yer handy pipe fitting to mush the nose a bit.

[Cuts Crooked]

I'd have to agree with AJ on annealing, just do the mouth area!

However, I think you may have a bigger problem than just your heavy load. I think from the looks of those shells that you may have a problem with maximum chamber dimensions, combined with minimum shell diameter. This combinatoin might be too much for loading techniques to overcome! I would try this: Clean and polish those hulls until they are blindingly bright again, then make up some light smokeless loads in them and fire them through that gun...THEN...reload them with BP loads and see what happens! Hopefully firing the light smokeless loads will fire form the hulls out to where they are a bit closer to your chamber specs in that gun.

good luck pard, and keep reporting back! I would like to know what, if any, solution works!

[litl rooster]

    Just curious,  How much wadding you used, and were they lubed? Whas this a Sub powder?< I have noticed on some bought ammo I have the APP powder leaves a white streak, however they don't stick.

  I didn't use mine in the SxS, I was looking for better feed in my '87. They didn't feed any better. I also loaded like I normally do.

[Grapeshot]

What kind of Powder were you using?  The only time I ever saw any white residue was when I used American Pioneer Powder.

I have to agree with the othe pards on this.  Good luck.

[Silver Creek Slim]

Looks to me like yer gonna have to resize that brass somehow. I have some older Remington and Winchester brass that would get stuck in the chambers after firing. I got a machinist to make a plate to resize the brass, then they worked fine.

Slim

[Adirondack Jack]

Yep a steel or brass plate of 3/4 thickness or so, with a .795 hole in it with a nice chamfered lead on the hole.

Once sized, ya shouldn't have to size em again for BP.  But when pressures are higher, (like with smokeless) they need frequent resizing and ya will wear em out.  One of the reasons I gave up on smokeless in magtechs.

[Goatlips]

Jack and Cuts, only reason I added wads to the top was for looks and cause I didn't know no different. I tried to anneal just the top but did it in sunlight so it was hard to be accurate, too much water made 'em float, even with a couple boolits in 'em for weight.
Rooster & Grapeshot, think I just added another circle fly overpowder wad, never lubed my wads, somethin' else to try.  Lido 2f powder, no subs ever.
Slim, p'raps my heavy load gave me smokeless pressures and swelled 'em up some.  They're in the tumbler now, later I'll try them in the chambers to see how they fit compared to my normal loads.  Will let y'all know.

I may have overstepped my bounds in fooling with a perfectly good load, but you know how it is - can't leave well enough alone, always fun to try something new.  Thanks to all for the good help.

Goatlips

[Adirondack Jack]

Goatlips, if I may be so bold, let me offer the following criticism.  Ya might well do a LOT better if ya take a good load and change ONLY one thing at a time, so if it goes to crumbs, ya can figger out why

[Goatlips]

take a good load and change ONLY one thing at a time, so if it goes to crumbs, ya can figger out why

Good advice Jack.  My newly cleaned brass is now too big for my newly cleaned guns, so for the moment I'll just set aside the ten fat cases that I shot,  pull the overshot cards on my remaining shells, dump out half the shot and reseal, and use them for practice (as if I ever practice!).  Should lighten the pressure enough to turn them back into normal empties.  Thanks for the help pards!

Goatlips

[Howdy Doody]

Howdy Goatlips. Sorry but I can't add anything to help your delema. I have never tried the brass shells. I just wanted to tell you that the way you take pictures to add is always interesting and it really helps to see what the problem looks like. Good luck in getting a handle on the problem though. I always read your posts.

[Wills Point Pete]

 The brass shells from Mag Tech are all I load in my Chicom Mule Ear Double. I do not crimp the casemouths. Tried it and the mouth crimp did not iron out after shooting which was not good for the patterns. Plus it was a pain putting those stiff overpowder wads in the shells after that, I had to iron out the crimps with a tapered rod.
I am not familiar with Lido powder but I would suspect that it is not the powder.
Do you have a tapered rod? If so, knock all the crimp out and try belling the mouth just a little bit, until the shell is tght in the chamber. From the looks of things you are not sealing the chamber and that is at least part of the problem.
Have you made sure that all of the oil is out of the chambers? You know how BP residue and oil turn into a super glue like goo.
Other than that I am running out of ideas. I anneal my shells with my lead furnace, I just stick my thermometer in and when the temp is right there at 665 F I stick the  lightly oiled casemouth in there and when the blue shift in color starts, there I am. Drop them in a bucket filled with ice and water, the ice keeps the hot cases from heating up the water.

[Goatlips]

Thanks fer the kind words Howdy!  Pete, if my 'dig out the shot' trick don't work, I'm not adverse to cutting 'em down as a last resort; but finding some kind of mid taper jig might be better.  If I try annealing again, I'll use your trick. No oil in my chambers, before. after or during.  Just boiling water and moose milk. Will let y'all know but right now I'm packing up for RANGE WAR!

Goatlips

[rifle]

What exactly was the load chain in those brass shells?? Why did you anneal the brass? What were the wads made of? Was the powder regular blackpowder?

[Dick Dastardly]

I'm thinkn' there's two reasons for crimping the brass shells.  One is to make 'em easier to chamber in a hurry at the match.  I'm bettin' they do that.  The second is to help hold the stuff in the shell.  Tell me if I'm wrong please.

So, for reason one, would not a medium champfer ease the loading problem.  I'm also thinkn' that a "neck sizing" die might help.  For that, I'd use a MEC Sizemaster collet sizer and give 'em a squeeze, face down.

For reason two, I'm thinkn' that a springy, fairly stiff and slightly oversize overshot wad might be the answer.  I'd seat it with a well centered dowel so that when seated it would have a concave face when viewed from the mouth.  That way, the special overshot wad would act like a finger in a Chinese handcuff.  When shot it would simply supply enough resistance to keep the charge in place long enuf for uniform pressure to build up.  I'll work on some of these wads.

DD-DLoS

[Adirondack Jack]

DD ole pard, yer thinkin' is in agreement with mine.  The reason to roll crimp is to speed loading.  Now yes, the military used em roll crimped, loaded with a healthy buckshot load to keep em together and to make em feed in a pump, but they leave brass where it ejects.

I toyed with that idea when I first changed to magtechs from smokeless, and I thought "nope, brass is too expensive", and did essentially what you said.  I don't size em, as I find a good patina from repeated use with 777 and soaking in brass water, followed by oven drying and a short time in the tumbler will "glaze" the shells with a slick glaze so that extraction is never an issue, and even with my rough and nasty Chicom SxS the shells generally shuck easily.

I did deburr and slightly chamfer the OD of the shells, lacking a proper tool to do so I did it with a fine cut file and a little jig I made to hold em at a constant angle while I rolled the shell and worked the file (think like a chainsaw jig).  Then I polished the case mouths on a buffer with red compound.

Then I use 10 GA overshots and a goodly dollop of Probond woodworkers glue to seal em and they stay together fine with no problems at all.

THEN THE SECRET:  I practiced loading two into the SxS until I could do it in the dark and never missed the chambers.