Homemade lube and reaction with brass

[Black River Smith]

Do you check your homemade lubes to see if they react (corrodes, turns a different color) with brass casings?  If you do how do you neutalize it?

My lube when wiped on the outside of a casing is turning green around the edges after about 2 months.  When I removed some the brass underneath is brownish and therefore no longer bright.  Something appears to be leaching into the lube creating the color change.  The green color is not on the brass.  The lube is very general beeswax, tallow, olive oil, peanut oil, cooking oil.  The tallow I rendered is not hard but pasty.  Do I have water still left in it?

Now I know some will say "My luibe does not sit on the case that long (load and fire)" but I have some that sit for 6 months before firing.

Can't find pH values for these products(not required or applicable for oils or food products).  Any ideas or suggestions?  How would I neutralize?  And which direction would I go more acidic or more basic (stearic acid or soap)?

Thanks for any help.

[Steel Horse Bailey]

I store my home-brew in a brass lube squirter that is essentially a cake decorator.  My "secret"  recipe is 1 part canning wax, 1 part beeswax, and about 10 parts olive oil.  (I like the lube VERY soft for C&B squirting ability.)

Anyway, the lube itself turns a pale green where it touches the brass.  I never noticed what it does to the brass itself, 'cause I'm not tryin' to keep it pretty gold and shiney like my cases.

My lube is over a year old and will probably serve me the rest of my life.

Don't know how to stop the color change, tho.

[sundance44`s]

Have ya tried putting a little vinigar in your soapy soaking water ...with out the vinigar i have the same results as you described .

[Steel Horse Bailey]

I realize what I was posting about was lube and brass reaction - not fired residue/brass reaction, but the vinegar in the soak water seems like a good idea.  I don't know how to use that info toward keeping my lube & brass dispenser from turnin' green, but I may reheat some of my lube with some vinegar added.

We'll see.

[Delmonico]

As far as I know all cooikng oils and shortenings that are not a natural product such as lard, tallow and olive oil are slightly acid.  This is from the chemistry used to make them usable in cooking.   

[sundance44`s]

Whoaaaaa i didn`t mean to sound like i`m useing vinegar in my lube ..I add vinegar to my soap and water mix that i soak my dirty brass in i uasually soak `m about 2 days  ...in there it cuts the green and brown stains .. cases look good and bright before they hit the tumbler .

[Black River Smith]

Steel Horse you are correct.  It is the reaction between the lube and brass after loading and before firing.  What you stated did help.

Del thanks for that info. that also helps understand what could be going on.

On the 14th I placed a dab of each ingredient on a piece of brass plate.  On the 18th after posting this I re-examined it.  The homemade tallow was the only ingred showing signs of a green discoloring.  Today it is worse.  Store bought Sno-Cap Lard has not discolored.

The tallow was prepared by soaking cut fat in tap water then draining before melting over direct heat.(no water layer to protect fat).  (The soaking removes the blood.)  Then after melting and filtering the tallow was reheated to remove residual water.  Nice white but pasty material when sitting at room temp.

So today I prepped some new tallow.  I cut and placed fat in the top of a double boiler.(no soaking/washing with tap water).  Then filtered as liquid fat formed and heated to remove residual water in fat.  The color is a very slight yellow (from some blood since this was not washed out).  A dab of this has now been placed on the brass plate.  We will see what happens.  Hopefully no tap water means no corrosion.

I am thinking that the common hard water salts/metals in tap water may be the overall problem. No water softener either.   If you could use Deionized Water to soak and rinse then 'probably no corrosion affect'.  Cannot prove this because I do not have access to source of DI water.

[Delmonico]

Interesting, I have some rounds of 45-70 hunting loads with the 330 Gould in them that were loaded in 2000, I'll pull one out later and look for corrosion on the inside.  I would have almost but you were using soy-bean oil or such in the mix and that was the problem.  These processed oils and fats are not highly acid but just slightly.

[Black River Smith]

Del your guess is correct, the cooking oil is 'Ideal' (Dollar store)  it states that it is 100% pure vegetable. Ingredients:  Soybean oil/sunflower oil.  I did not think this to be a mentionable item since every one uses some form of cooking oil.  Even liquid Crisco is soybean oil

Would Corn oil be the same or better?  I can remove or substitute.

[Delmonico]

I am grasping at cooking knowledge here, but Olive Oil as I rember right is the olny cooking oil that is made and used in it's natural form, that is why it was around in Biblical times, the others need some sort of chemical work to make them usable.  I now need to do some more searching and see what I can find out because I'm very curious. 

I pulled one of those bullets in one of those 6 year old rounds of mine that used my bees wax deer tallow mix and the lube was a very slight green on the surface, but not down into the lube and there was no corrosion to speak of on the brass, in fact since these rounds were hauled around in pockets and such, there was more what you might term corrosion on the outside than the inside.   

[Delmonico]

OK, a little searching came up with maybe some answers that could make sense, we need a better chemist than me and I think I know who it may be, I'll send a PM and see what I get back, we need one that also cooks and shoots.

All vegtable oils that we cook with except Palm oil which I forgot about and Olive Oil turn rancid in their natural state very quickly.  A chemical process called Hydrgenation is used to prevent this by adding hydrogen to the oil.  Acids are based around hydrogen molacules so hydrogenation increases the acid level of these oils forming more of the fatty acids, they types of these fatty acid are involved in the good cholesterol bad cholesterol thing, but of now concern here, what we have is a slighty higher PH level with these products.

Also modern grain fed beef has a higher level of these trans fatty acids than grass fed beef.  I would think since they are similar animals this is the reason my deer tallow doesn't seem to cause as much corrosion. 

Pork, and so also lard also doesn't have as high an acid level.  I am not a real chemist but I have had a couple courses at the College level and paid attention because they helped with understanding both how firearms and food worked.  With what I found out with about an hours research does make sense to me, does it to anyone else?

What does make me wonder is if there is a need for liquid oils at all.  My lube has always worked fine for me in 45-70, down to around 10 degrees or so.  What I have noticed is that ip you take a little bit and rub it between you fingers it gets soft right now from body heat and friction, I did it this morning with a bit and put it in a heel crack in my foot.  As soon as a bullet starts to move, friction would also heat it as well.  Just a thought here.  Since deer tallow might be hard for some to get, perhaps just a lard beeswax mix?  I would reduce the acidity.  If oil is needed, the Olive Oil?  I have never seen plain palm oil for sale but have never looked for it, I do know most artifical butter that is put on popcorn at the movies is butter flavored palm oil, but I don't know what else is in it beside flavor.  My neighborhood grocery store closed at 11pm my time, just a few minutes ago.  Might have to go to the store in the morning and take some notes, they are used to me anyway and won't think it's to unusual.

[Mogorilla]

Del, you are right on the money.  Olive and Palm are the two that little or nothing is done to them, some high end pressed nut oils might also fall in that category (grapeseed and walnut, for health issues, I recommend grapeseed.).   As oils turn rancid, they form peroxides, which are also highly reactive and would lend themself to corrosion, so the initial oil may have been going bad and the peroxides led to green brass, but probably it was partially hydrogenated.
I was a food chemist for 5 years, we took oils and "cracked" them into mono glycerides for baking (about the time I quit eating bread).   Anyway, Stick to natual fats, tallows. I believe Dixie sells Mutton Tallow, there was a fellow on another board (Gatofeo), he swore by a mutton tallow, bees wax, parafin(canning wax) mix.  Others tweeked this with much success, by the inclusion of olive oil.  I would stick to EVOO, (extra virgin, or virgin).  This is the first press of olive oil and as such, it is not heated.  If it is labeled just olive oil, they heat the dregs of the pressings to get more out of the fruit.  The heat can increase quickening of the rancid process on oils.
If memory serves, palm oil is a solid at room temp, harder than lard.   It may be ideal as a lube additive.   Any hydrogenation will lead to an acidic pH. 

[Delmonico]

Thanks Mo, I thought I was on the right track but I knew you would know.  As my research found out, grain fattened beef has a higher fatty acid content.   

I have been using 50% Deer tallow and 50% Beeswax sinnce early 96 in my long range 45-70's and have never seen a reason to experiment.