Research Advice

[Frenchie]

Friends,

I'm about ready to start putting together my post-Civil War Army NCO persona. The time frame is 1866 to 1872. I'm going to start looking for uniforms, guns, accoutrements, etc. appropriate to an infantry sergeant. I have some pretty good ideas of where to look for information and items, but of course I'm not going to overlook the gold mine of advice and information available in your heads and home libraries. I'm especially interested in book titles and Web sites where I can obtain solid research material to help me build my 'Originals' persona. Any sources of information, advice, thoughts, and even semi-coherent drunken ramblings will be welcome. Don't hesitate to mention things you might at first think don't have enough "informational content" - you never know what minor detail might turn out to be more important than it first appears. Thanks in advance,

[Old Top]

Frenchie,

I beleive that most of the equipment and uniforms were the same as the Civil War, in 1872 the new uniform regulations came out but I think that with the vast stocks of uniforms on hand that they were issued before the newer uniforms.

Old Top

[US Scout]

Two of my favorite resources are:

Army Blue: The Uniform of Uncle Sam's Regulars, 1848-1873 by John P. Langellier

The U.S. Army in the West, 1870-1880: Uniforms, Weapons, and Equipment by Douglas C. McChristian

And there are the excellent monographs by Osprey (Men-at-War, Elites, etc) and the Greenhill (The G.I. Series : the Illustrated History of the American Soldier, His Uniform and His Equipment) that can provide lots of good information.

Your Civil War uniform will be quite appropriate - kepi, dark blue sack coat and kersey blue trousers, same cartridge box, etc. as these didn't start to see much change until the end of your chosen period.

Your biggest problem, of course, is that the infantry, especially the enlisted men of the infantry, typically did not carry the type of firearms typcially used in CAS/WAS.  For the time period you've chosen (very similar to my own), the Henry and infantry-model Spencer might be good longarm choices though (the 3rd INF used the Spencer from about 1867-70).   For pistols, the Colt or Remington percussion pistols, the Richards conversion of the Colt Army, or a Remington conversion (several variants to chose from) would be your best choice as most likely for an NCO to get his hands on.  For shotgun, you'll probably need to borrow the company's privately purchased hammered double-barreled shotgun used for hunting.

As time allows, I'm doing research on the 3rd Infantry from 1866-1870 for my own persona, and will let you know of anything I find out.

US Scout
Bvt Brig Gen

[Pitspitr]

Echo General Scout's advice on the research books. I prefer McChristian over Langilier, but that's just me. Both are very good. I also like More Army Blue by Langilier but it covers the later period. For the period you're looking at a good CW infantry uniform will just about cover it.

Now as to the side arms; I'm going to muddy the waters just a little bit (sorry). While what General Scout said about the infantry not having standard issue side arms is true, some units/intallations did have limited numbers of them. Fort Hartsuff, for instance, was never home to any Cavalry or Artillery. However; ordinence returns show some Remington precussion revolvers were on hand from the fort's inception in 1874 until 1876 when they were replaced with Colt cartridge revolvers. You can also justify your revolvers as "battle field pickups from the late war" or private purchases depending on the piece.

Another thing you might want to think about doing is to pick a regiment or if possible even a company within that regiment to portray as General Scout and I have. In some ways it will make your reasearch into what you're going to use more difficult in that you might have to dig a little deeper, but it will give you a much more in depth view as to what you are trying to portray. This way if and when you're questioned about why you're using a certain item you can say, "My research indicates that item xyz was used by my company."

[St. George]

Good references, those - and well worth the purchase price.

The post Civil-War Army would continue using up wartime stocks until 'sizes' began to run out - and more or less necessitating' the adoption of the new Uniform Regulations that started appearing in 1872.

Frontier soldiers wouldn't see the new gear for a couple of years after that, though - so your Civil War outfit's fine.

As was suggested - the Infantry wasn't issued the firearms as common to C&WAS - and Spencer Rifles weren't all that common, nor were Henry rifles in Regular units.

As-issued - Infantry NCOs carried longarms - not revolvers, as a rule - but while on Campaign - rules relaxed, and the Model 1860 Colt and Remington .44 would've been used  - but for more 'senior' Non-Coms - and not your garden variety three-striper.  

At the end of the Civil War the army was considerably downsized.  
Although the army desperately needed a breech-loading rifle, the huge financial burden left after the Civil War forced more frugal choices.

There were enough new Rifle-Muskets left over from the Civil War to issue every soldier five.  

For a cost of $1.44, the 58 caliber Springfield Rifle-Muskets were converted to a .50/70 breech-loading rifle ( .50 caliber, .450 grain projectile - with 70 Grains of Black Powder) -
A sleeve had to be fitted into the barrel and "trap door" added to allow the loading of a cartridge - hence the name Springfield "Trap Door".

The cartridge box held forty rounds of .50/70 ammunition used in the Springfield Rifle.
Originally designed to hold paper cartridges for rifled muskets in two metal tins, the cartridge box made an awkward container for copper cartridges.
Many soldiers removed the tin containers and lined the cartridge box with sheepskin so that the cartridges could lay inside without rattling about.
As well, a soldier could simply drop two cardboard boxes of cartridges into the cartridge box.

By the time an Infantryman on the frontier was close enough to his adversary to use the bayonet attached to front of his rifle barrel, he was likely to be bristling with arrows and liberally punctured with Hostile's bullets.

The bayonet was kept in a scabbard attached to the belt when not in use.
After the Civil War, the bayonet was largely an ornamental item, and on the Frontier - was primarily used only in dress parades - but he'd've been issued one.
A soldier leaving Fort Larned on a wagon escort detail would likely leave his bayonet behind, as would Cavalry troopers their sabers.

Read:

'Carbine and Lance' - Nye
'40 Miles a Day' - Rickey
'Soldier and Brave' - National Park Service
'Indian Fighting Army' - Downey

And yes - there's more...

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[Cannon Fodder]

Frenchie,

Several of us NCOWS/GAF  here in Ga  who want to represent  Indian Wars military, are trying to represent infantry and artillery.

Not to take anything away from the  10 cavalry  regiments, but we think their story is well told because of  Custer and the excellent  work of the Buffalo Soldiers.

Their  were 25 infantry regiments(consolidated from 45) and  5 artillery regiments(primarily used as cavalry,mounted infantry or infantry.)

We  think the infantry and the artillery  are forgotten. Just my thoughts.

Cannon Fodder

[Fox Creek Kid]

... he was likely to be bristling with arrows and liberally punctured with Hostile's bullets.

We get the picture. 

[Frenchie]

I knew I'd get a ton of info from you guys!

Old Top & St. George, yes, I picked 1872 as the cutoff because stopping just before the new uniform regs came out means I can use my CW items. I decided to do a military impression for NCOWS because 1.) it's easier to research and document than a civilian impression and 2.) everything does double duty for the Grand Army of the Frontier (and triple duty for those items that also fit the War years). Does doing it this way make me look smart? It ain't being smart, it's being lazy

US Scout, your post has made my day because I've been with the 3rd US Infantry (1860-1865) for 11 years, so I don't even need to change units. Right there I already have a "history" of old war stories and know the uniforms, weapons, and accoutrements they were issued all through the War. All I have to do is research them from 1866 to 1872 and compare notes with you. I also think the Spencer infantry rifle is just the bee's knees! Yahoo!

For handguns, I think the way to go is a Model 1860 Richards-Mason conversion from Cimmaron. But I have two Remington New Model Navy .36s, if I had them converted to R-M cartridge guns, do you think that might be okay?

For a shotgun, I understand that the first successful break-open cartridge models (using brass shells) came out about 1870, so for 1871-72 it would work. Anyone have a good lead on one that might fit the bill? Describe what I need to look for, please.

Cannon Fodder, you've got it right: Infantry is the Queen of Battle. Cavalry and artillery are fine, but all they can really do to the enemy is drive him away or underground; it's the foot soldier, the rifleman, who goes after him and forces him to surrender or die, then takes his territory and holds it. "The war is won when the first weary, footsore infantryman sits down in the town square and says, 'Where are we, and when do we eat?'"

[Old Top]

Frenchie,

AIRBORNE (which aint in are time frame)

Old Top

[US Scout]

US Scout, your post has made my day because I've been with the 3rd US Infantry (1860-1865) for 11 years, so I don't even need to change units. Right there I already have a "history" of old war stories and know the uniforms, weapons, and accoutrements they were issued all through the War. All I have to do is research them from 1866 to 1872 and compare notes with you. I also think the Spencer infantry rifle is just the bee's knees! Yahoo!

For handguns, I think the way to go is a Model 1860 Richards-Mason conversion from Cimmaron. But I have two Remington New Model Navy .36s, if I had them converted to R-M cartridge guns, do you think that might be okay?

Frenchie,

The reason I cited the 3rd Infantry (in addition to my own reenactment connection to it) was that I seemed to have remembered some earlier conversations you in which you mentioned being in the 3rd.  Check out a post I have at The Barracks about a recent visit to their Museum at Ft Myers to determine what they did between 1865-1870.

As for the pistol, while the 1860 R-M conversion is more readily available, the Army only had the earlier Richards version before adopting the 1873 SAA.  Unfortunately, the only mass-produced Richards conversions available are the old Cimarron ASM made pistols, whcih are generally poor quality and dropped from distibution by Cimarron several years ago.  The other option, if you want a Richards, is to have someone like R.L. Millington make one for you - however, that is not only very expensive but he has an 18-24 month backlog right now.  Of course, you could just get the R-M and claim it was a private purchase and not issue.

The Navy converted a number of Colt 1851 and 1861 percussion pistols to the Richard-Mason model, but the Remingtons used a totally different system.  Generally, the Army model was reworked to have a new cylinder with the chambers bored all the way through, while the Navy models tended to have either the same basic system, or something very similar to the R&D cylinders that are currently available. 

For conversion descriptions and history, I recommend you find a copy of "A Study of Colt Conversions and Other Percussion Revolvers by R. Bruce McDowell.   Another good reference on firearms used by the military on the frontier is "Firearms of the American West 1866-1894 by Louis A. Garavaglia and Charles G. Worman (Worman sometimes has a table at the Baltimore Antique Gun Show held in Timonium every March)

[Cannon Fodder]

Frenchie and others,

I am not up on the 3rd infantry. However I just  noticed  that at the battle of Beechers Island in 1868 that Lt Beecher was formerly with the  3rd infantry and was killed there.  I wonder how many of the 50+ "scouts" were also from the 3rd?

If they hadnt had spencers(mostly carbines I think) I dont think they would have survived.  I read somewhere that Col Forsyth ,although wounded, volley fired the 50 spencers  for their last 7 rounds during  the Cheyennes main  attack.  They supposedly killed Roman Nose on the fifth volley shooting  hinm through the hips.

I would appreciate comments on this more learned than I .

Cannon Fodder

[US Scout]

Cannon Fodder,

Lt Fred Beecher, 3rd Infantry, was detailed from his unit to serve as the second in command of the company of scouts under Major and Brevet Lieutenant Colonel George Forsyth, 9th Cavalry.  Beecher was killed early in the battle.

The rest of the men in the company were all civilian "frontiersmen."  Some had more frontier experience than others - including several who had no experience whatsoever.  Many had served in the Civil War (on both sides) prior to coming out west, and the 1st Sgt, William McCall, was a brevet brigadier general of US Volunteers during the War.

Unfortunately, all my various books on Beecher's Island are packed up due to some recent work in our house, and I haven't had time to unpack them yet.

As for the Spencers, the men themselves agreed that if it hadn't been for the repeaters, they would have probably been overrun in the first assault. 

There is some question as to whether the Spencers were carbines or rifles.  Carbines would have made more sense of course, being as they were mounted, but the 3rd was issued Spencer rifles at the time (and Beecher was from the 3rd), so they may have had rifles instead of carbines.  None of the participants was clear as to what they actually carried.  Trailrider has been doing research on this for years and has come up with no definitive answer.

['Monterrey' Jack Brass]

Frenchie,

The books already listed are excellent resources. One other I can think of that details a little on early war (though covers the whole era) is: INDIAN WAR CARTRIDGE POUCHES, BOXES & CARBINE BOOTS, by R. Stephen Dorsey http://www.rsdmilitaria.com/library.php?libraryCat=1#books

Been awhile since I've had a chance to look at it but it might be helpful to you regarding equipment details.

YMH&OS,

'Monterrey' Jack Brass

[Cannon Fodder]

U S Scout and others,

Thank you  Sir for the great info on  Beechers Island.

Looking for more posts  from those more knowledeable  than I .

Sgt  F B (cannon) Fodder