I'm trying to get set up for reloading .44-40 since factory black powder rounds don't seem to be a thing and smokeless velocities seem to generally suck out of pistols compared to black.

I'm leery though, I have never reloaded with black powder before and my setup is geared toward high volume smokeless than low volume black.  I have a Lee pro 1000 and a Lee APP.

My preference for this would be an old school Lee Loader since I really will not need high volume at all and I plan to manually dump my powder charges via a black powder measure, but those don't seem to be available for .44-40 (were they ever?).

Now my questions are this, will the standard 3 die Lee set intended for 3 position presses (like the Pro 1000) adequately crimp the bullet? Or do I need to get a separate crimp die and run everything twice?  Has anyone tried using the APP as a single stage?  Will the standard shell plate included with the APP work?

Or am I approaching this entirely wrong?

Alternatively, since I don't have a rifle yet and will need brass anyway, does anyone know a factory load that will duplicate full power black powder performance from a revolver?

It Depends (No, not the kind in the plastic packaging)

Once you settle on a "load" a powder measure (I think I know the kind you mean) will actually be a hinderance.  You'll be better served by a set of Lee Dippers.  With a funnel and a dipper, you'll be amazed how quickly you can charge 50 cases in a loading block.  Or:

Run your cases thru the pro 1000 to resize, prime and bell (New cases MUST be resized) then pull em into your loading block for powder, then back to the Pro 1000 for seating and crimping.  As an aside, I also powder drop with my DILLON.  Some folks are hesitant to run BP thru a modern measure but I have no problems with doing that.  YMMV

I load 44-40 on a Lee Turret.  I do use and recommend the separate factory crimp die.  I use a Lee funnel adaptor with their red funnel in place of the powder measure and dip in the black powder with Lee dippers.  Don't know nothin' about the APP.  Buffalo Arms sells BP 44-40, currently out of stock.  Pricey, but so is any smokeless 44-40 you will find.

Quote from: Abilene on December 06, 2024, 12:01:18 AMI load 44-40 on a Lee Turret.  I do use and recommend the separate factory crimp die.  I use a Lee funnel adaptor with their red funnel in place of the powder measure and dip in the black powder with Lee dippers.  Don't know nothin' about the APP.  Buffalo Arms sells BP 44-40, currently out of stock.  Pricey, but so is any smokeless 44-40 you will find.

Not as bad as Buffalo Bore... YIKES!  $3+ each!

I think I saw the ones you mentioned, almost tried to order some but then I noticed they were out of stock, any clue as to when they might restock?  Price was high but not too outrageous, about on par with match grade rifle ammunition.

Do .44-40 cases need lube?

I know I can usually get away with no lube with the Lee dies because they are carbide, but that doesn't apply to bottlenecked cases and .44-40 is technically bottlenecked.

Yes, your .44-40 dies will be non-carbide and you'll want to lube the cases for sizing.  If you run them through your Pro 1000 to resize and expand, then if you want you might tumble the lube off before charging with black powder.

Here's a four-page thread on crimping .44-40 that I recommend reading from start to finish.  It doesn't give you any one answer, because as you'll see there's more than one answer, but it gives you a lot of perspectives on crimping .44-40.

https://forums.sassnet.com/index.php?/topic/289413-44-40-taper-crimp-or-factory-crimp/

You'll also hear a lot of people recommend the RCBS Cowboy dies for reloading .44-40 with lead bullets, and while that doesn't seem to be strictly necessary, it probably does make things easier.  The Cowboy dies are designed for reloading slightly larger diameter bullets, and lead bullets are usually slightly larger than jacketed bullets in the same caliber.  And the difference between a company's standard dies and the Cowboy dies is often more pronounced with the .44-40, as many die sets are designed for jacketed bullets around .427 diameter, whereas modern replicas chambered in .44-40 usually have groove diameters around .429, so the larger Cowboy dies can be really helpful in reloading .429 to .430 diameter cast bullets.  But I say "can" and "may" because there are enough factors involved that people have different experiences.  However, if you can get the RCBS Cowboy dies for a good price, I'd go for it.

I myself like using RCBS Cowboy dies now, but I used Lyman dies for 25 years or more. I have also replaced the LFC for a Redding Profile crimp die, and like it better.

Well I just ordered everything to start reloading .44-40, between the manuals (Lyman black powder handbook and lyman cast bullet handbook), the dies (lee), trimmer die (lee), bullet lube, and a couple of pounds of Swiss I'm in for $285 after tax and shipping.  Wish me luck.

I also ordered 3 boxes of magtech 4440A as a source of brass (out of stock everywhere) and to help setup my dies.  That was about another $140 shipped...

FYI, the Magtech 4440A was as closest as I could find to anything approaching original black powder velocity that was actually in stock, at least without spending $3+ per round from Buffalo Bore... YIKES!  Still off by about 100 feet per second though   At least it will give me something to shoot in the meantime though and I plan to reuse the brass and load it the right way with black powder.

RCBS Cowboy Dies are no question the best I've used for the WCF calibers and lead bullets. Use those and don't put crimp with the seater die, just close the flare and then follow up with a Lee FCD to finish up. Never crush a case.

I know you were looking for an original style bullet, 43-210B is a very good one I've used. The 43-215C is my favorite though, it has a large single lube groove and a crimp groove but when loaded look just like the original bullets.

I know you've already ordered the Lee dies, but just a heads up: I had a major issue with the Lee sizing die, it wouldn't set the shoulder of the case back far enough, so I had to grind a decent amount of length off and re-flare the mouth of the die. I did it a little at a time til it was right. I load .431 diameter bullets for my .430 Uberti bores, and so the expander plug in the Lee die was way too small. It's also a bit short. Fortunately, NOE makes fantastic replacement expander plugs in about any size you need. My next problem was with crimping, the Lee Factory Crimp Die was creating bulges that were just bad enough to cause chambering issues in my Uberti Revolver. Apparently Uberti .44WCF revolvers are kinda infamous for having tight chambers relative to their modern .429+ bores. I finally switched to crimping with the Redding Profile Crimp Die like Cliff, and I am  also totally sold on it. Finally, I, like you, wish to load black powder loads as close to the original specs as I can get in modern solid head cases. This requires using a compression die for the powder, so that you don't bulge the case or deform the soft bullet in seating. Also, you probably know this already, but for this particular caliber, Winchester used pure lead bullets.

As to your press situation, I can only relate my own experiences and preferences. I have loaded full-case black powder .44WCF for six or seven years now, on a Lee Classic Turret mostly, though I did try a modified Lee Loadmaster for a while (too complicated/too much powder spillage for this particular application). Personally, though I also am not loading huge volumes (usually less than 200 rounds at a time) I am spoiled to with the turret press and wouldn't want to go to a single stage. That said, because I have to use a powder compression die, separate crimp die, and prefer to use a bullet drop die, the four stations on the Classic Turret are just not enough, and I have to break the process into two halves with dies in two turrets. I plan to get one of Lee's new Ultimate Turret Presses soon for the extra stations. Here's my current die progression below. I use a Lee Pro Auto Disk measure, I am one of the many that aren't scared to use a standard measure. There's simply no proof of any danger, and plenty of evidence to the contrary. Of course, one could easily hand-drop charges or use a drop tube with the powder-through expander die if desired.

 Decap, wash brass (I wet tumble)

1. Resize, prime
2. Expand, charge (Lee Powder-Through expander die with NOE plug)
3. Compress powder (Buffalo Arms has various options, I use a homemade plug in a Lee Universal Expander die body)
4. Drop bullet (Lee inline bullet drop)
5. Seat bullet, slightly start crimp
6. Finish crimp (Redding Profile Crimp die)

I really think the new six-station turret press is going to suit me to a T. (anyone wanna buy a loadmaster? )

This cartridge can be a little finicky to get just right, but in my experience that is more because of the guns & dies (modern manufacturers mixing old and new dimensions) and because of my absolute need for powerful black powder loads- not the actual cartridge itself. I have found it to be extremely rewarding though to finally get a reliable process figured out that turns out fantastic ammunition that closely replicates the powerful .44WCF cartridge that played such a huge role in winning the West, and put tons of meat on the table for folks across the continent. I have taken 4 deer with this cartridge in my Uberti/Cimarron 1873 Winchester rifle, and as long as I put the bullet in the vitals it does an admirable job out to 100 yards- and I'm sure it would do it to nearly twice that if I could be accurate enough.

OK I finally got my manuals, and my dies, so now I have data from Lee, Lyman, and Hornady.

As far as black powder loads I found the lyman black powder manual to not be of much use, all I got out of it was basically to use a full case load, which I already knew, their actual data was pathetic, apparently whoever did it was terrified of compression as they consider a 30 grain load with room left at the top to be a full case load, their velocity numbers were nowhere near the period loadings and they had no data at all for Swiss.  So I think I will just do Swiss 3F up to the case mouth and compress it until I can make the bullet fit (Lyman 427098).

As for smokeless loads, there was some actual interesting data.  The only powder that was in common across all sources though was Unique, which I came up with 6.3-7.9 as the correct charge weight (Those are the Lyman numbers, the Lee data did not specify if it was for revolvers or rifles (7.6-8.6) and the Hornady numbers were just plain weak sauce popgun loads 5.1-5.9 for rifles and 5.7-6.5 for revolvers).  According to the Lyman numbers that would give 853-1044 fps out of a 6 inch barrel and 895-1127 fps out of a  19 inch barrel.

Quote from: 9245 on December 18, 2024, 11:12:35 AMOK I finally got my manuals, and my dies, so now I have data from Lee, Lyman, and Hornady.

As far as black powder loads I found the lyman black powder manual to not be of much use, all I got out of it was basically to use a full case load, which I already knew, their actual data was pathetic, apparently whoever did it was terrified of compression as they consider a 30 grain load with room left at the top to be a full case load, their velocity numbers were nowhere near the period loadings and they had no data at all for Swiss.  So I think I will just do Swiss 3F up to the case mouth and compress it until I can make the bullet fit (Lyman 427098).

As for smokeless loads, there was some actual interesting data.  The only powder that was in common across all sources though was Unique, which I came up with 6.3-7.9 as the correct charge weight (Those are the Lyman numbers, the Lee data did not specify if it was for revolvers or rifles (7.6-8.6) and the Hornady numbers were just plain weak sauce popgun loads 5.1-5.9 for rifles and 5.7-6.5 for revolvers).  According to the Lyman numbers that would give 853-1044 fps out of a 6 inch barrel and 895-1127 fps out of a  19 inch barrel.

Did you check out Bryan Austin's website that I referred you to before? It's really the best resource for reloading information and data. Most modern writers and testers are basically useless when it comes to this caliber. Here's the website again:

https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/ballistics-handloading

Quote from: Little Dalton on December 18, 2024, 01:00:02 PMDid you check out Bryan Austin's website that I referred you to before? It's really the best resource for reloading information and data. Most modern writers and testers are basically useless when it comes to this caliber. Here's the website again:

https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/ballistics-handloading

This is very good advice. Set aside a significant amount of time to spend on that website and you'll be rewarded.

Griff

Quote from: 9245 on December 18, 2024, 11:12:35 AMOK I finally got my manuals, and my dies, so now I have data from Lee, Lyman, and Hornady.

As far as black powder loads I found the lyman black powder manual to not be of much use, all I got out of it was basically to use a full case load, which I already knew, their actual data was pathetic, apparently whoever did it was terrified of compression as they consider a 30 grain load with room left at the top to be a full case load, their velocity numbers were nowhere near the period loadings and they had no data at all for Swiss.  So I think I will just do Swiss 3F up to the case mouth and compress it until I can make the bullet fit (Lyman 427098).

First never have any air space with BP(except for one type of modern BP sub. I do not know its name).  Second your idea of filling all the way up to top of case and then compress is too much compression.  The general approach is 1/16" to 1/8" compression, only.  How you measure it is something you need to figure out with your bullet and powder measuring method.  Think of a way to drop your bullet in the casing with a powder level in it to have the bullet 1/16 to 1/8 distance to your desire crimp marker, making adjustments up or down in powder level.  Then measure that volume out and consistently throw that amount into each casing and seat your bullet, by what ever method you like.  Make your own powder scoop out of a casing.  It is not hard or any level of technical science.
PS Something else to know -- Tapping a casing with a level of BP in it, will settle the powder, thereby decreasing the powder volume. allowing the addition of more powder.  This will sometime allow the addition of 2 more grains.  But the settling technique must be somewhat consistent and the final throw volume determined before hand.

Quote from: 9245 on December 18, 2024, 11:12:35 AMOK I finally got my manuals, and my dies, so now I have data from Lee, Lyman, and Hornady.
As for smokeless loads, there was some actual interesting data.  The only powder that was in common across all sources though was Unique, which I came up with 6.3-7.9 as the correct charge weight (Those are the Lyman numbers, the Lee data did not specify if it was for revolvers or rifles (7.6-8.6) and the Hornady numbers were just plain weak sauce popgun loads 5.1-5.9 for rifles and 5.7-6.5 for revolvers).  According to the Lyman numbers that would give 853-1044 fps out of a 6 inch barrel and 895-1127 fps out of a  19 inch barrel.

I used back in '91 and still today 7.9 to 8.0 grains of Unique with the 200 grain 44/40 bullets.  Also a very respected cowboy gun writer by the name of Mike Venturino, who wrote several book on the old west guns and reloading for CAS, published the 8.0 grains of Unique behind a 200 grain bullet in his "Shooting Lever Guns of the Old West" and then 8.0 grains of Unique behind a 200 grain bullet in his "Shooting Colt Single Actions".  You have to choose what is right and good for you.  To me this is the factory equivalent and the maximum for 44/40 safe load.  This is for modern guns like yours but probably or definitely not in old original blackpowder firearms. 

You need to continue looking on the internet and book already published and read - read.  There is a lot of good information and also books about the Cowboy Guns out there.  I still look through the many books I have for loads on different caliber.

Quote from: Black River Smith on December 18, 2024, 03:26:31 PMFirst never have any air space with BP(except for one type of modern BP sub. I do not know its name).  Second your idea of filling all the way up to top of case and then compress is too much compression.  The general approach is 1/16" to 1/8" compression, only.  How you measure it is something you need to figure out with your bullet and powder measuring method.  Think of a way to drop your bullet in the casing with a powder level in it to have the bullet 1/16 to 1/8 distance to your desire crimp marker, making adjustments up or down in powder level.  Then measure that volume out and consistently throw that amount into each casing and seat your bullet, by what ever method you like.  Make your own powder scoop out of a casing.  It is not hard or any level of technical science.
PS Something else to know -- Tapping a casing with a level of BP in it, will settle the powder, thereby decreasing the powder volume. allowing the addition of more powder.  This will sometime allow the addition of 2 more grains.  But the settling technique must be somewhat consistent and the final throw volume determined before hand.

I used back in '91 and still today 7.9 to 8.0 grains of Unique with the 200 grain 44/40 bullets.  Also a very respected cowboy gun writer by the name of Mike Venturino, who wrote several book on the old west guns and reloading for CAS, published the 8.0 grains of Unique behind a 200 grain bullet in his "Shooting Lever Guns of the Old West" and then 8.0 grains of Unique behind a 200 grain bullet in his "Shooting Colt Single Actions".  You have to choose what is right and good for you.  To me this is the factory equivalent and the maximum for 44/40 safe load.  This is for modern guns like yours but probably or definitely not in old original blackpowder firearms. 

You need to continue looking on the internet and book already published and read - read.  There is a lot of good information and also books about the Cowboy Guns out there.  I still look through the many books I have for loads on different caliber.

That rule of thumb for compression may result in generally the most accurate loads in a lot of calibers, but there is nothing wrong or dangerous about more compression- and as John Kort's research showed, dissected original Winchester .44WCF cartridges showed charges that were compressed well over 1/4". As long as you don't bulge the thin case, you can compress as much as you like. Though loading for highest velocity and loading for greatest accuracy admittedly may not result in the same load.

Venturino's book "Shooting Lever Guns of the Old West" is great, but it should be taken with a grain of salt- first off, all his blackpowder testing was done with Goex, which is demonstrably dirtier and weaker than the powders used commercially in the late 1800s by Winchester and others. Therefore, he doesn't get near as close to the original black powder loadings of any of the pre-1900 cartridges as one could with Swiss powder. He also states that 33-34 grains of powder is "about all that can be drop-tubed into modern .44-40 cases" which just isn't true. John Kort loaded more, and my standard load (thrown from a mechanical measure but not drop tubed) is 37.5grs of Swiss 3F in Starline cases. I have found this to be the max that I can compress enough for the Accurate 43-215C to seat without the compression bulging the case occasionally. He does talk about the common issue of large bores and small chambers in .44-40 guns both old and new, but nowhere does he mention the crucial fact that Winchester originally loaded the .44WCF with pure lead bullets- which have been proven to be able to "bump up" significantly from smaller diameters to fit bigger bores, greatly improving accuracy in many instances. Again, John Kort covered so much of this, doing much more in depth research on this cartridge than was in Venturino's book, and if they didn't get to talk about it in this life, I'll be willing to bet Big Mike would have been tickled pink over "Jack Christian"'s further research, as this cartridge was one of Mike's favorites.

Little Dalton,
I did read all of John Korts internet info and also had some discussion with him, here on the forums.  But, I do not agree with the excessive compression idea to get more powder and higher velocities.
To me loading BP in a casing and compressing -- is an approach to create a 'nice solid' column of lets say 2F grain size of powder.  But when you take a casing with excess powder and extreme (more than 1/8" to me) compression, then you are not just compacting you starting to crush, grind, pulverized the granules from the 2F size to a 3F or 4F grain sizing.  That change in grain size is what is increasing the velocities along with just some extra powder.

This is just how I envision what is happening in the casing to make room for the bullet seating.

As a 'beginning' BP loader, I would rather see '9245' start off with the basics of loading blackpowder rather than jumping right to John Korts level of 'extreme' experimentation.

As far as Mike's books, I think he gave us 'New Cowboy Shooter'(like 9245) some very good reloading information for the older designed firearms, back when most people, where just trying to get in the New Sport.  He covered both general smokeless and general blackpowder loading for whatever you would like using.

With Copyrights of 1995, 1997 and 2010, I can't say just how many of the 'New' powders like Swiss, Wano & others existed back when he wrote them.  I myself only used Pyrodex, before all the newer subs came out in the 2000's, and still did up to 2008.  So, I do not know how to address your comment, He only used GOEX.

But, I will leave it at that thought.

Quote from: Little Dalton on December 18, 2024, 01:00:02 PMDid you check out Bryan Austin's website that I referred you to before? It's really the best resource for reloading information and data. Most modern writers and testers are basically useless when it comes to this caliber. Here's the website again:

https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/ballistics-handloading

I did, it was interesting, though I'm curious what 3F would do vs 2F.

My understanding is that they loaded with 2F in the 19th century, however "2F" in the 19th century was closer to 3F today.  Also all I have is 3F and 4F.

He mentioned though using a neck expander die for compressing the charges though, but how do you do that?

I use a 24" drop tube for all calibers I load BP for, but I don't compress after. I used a set of Lyman dies in 44/40 for decades until a few years ago when I switched to the RCBS Cowboy dies, and this year I switches from the Lee FCD to a Redding profile crimp die, which I like better. I guess the only real advice I can offer is just because it's less expensive, doesn't make it better. I have a couple sets of Lee dies, but only by default as I couldn't get what I needed in Lyman or RCBC, which I personally think are far superior to Lee. That's just my opinion.

Quote from: Black River Smith on December 18, 2024, 07:30:49 PMLittle Dalton,
I did read all of John Korts internet info and also had some discussion with him, here on the forums.  But, I do not agree with the excessive compression idea to get more powder and higher velocities.
To me loading BP in a casing and compressing -- is an approach to create a 'nice solid' column of lets say 2F grain size of powder.  But when you take a casing with excess powder and extreme (more than 1/8" to me) compression, then you are not just compacting you starting to crush, grind, pulverized the granules from the 2F size to a 3F or 4F grain sizing.  That change in grain size is what is increasing the velocities along with just some extra powder.

This is just how I envision what is happening in the casing to make room for the bullet seating.

As a 'beginning' BP loader, I would rather see '9245' start off with the basics of loading blackpowder rather than jumping right to John Korts level of 'extreme' experimentation.

As far as Mike's books, I think he gave us 'New Cowboy Shooter'(like 9245) some very good reloading information for the older designed firearms, back when most people, where just trying to get in the New Sport.  He covered both general smokeless and general blackpowder loading for whatever you would like using.

With Copyrights of 1995, 1997 and 2010, I can't say just how many of the 'New' powders like Swiss, Wano & others existed back when he wrote them.  I myself only used Pyrodex, before all the newer subs came out in the 2000's, and still did up to 2008.  So, I do not know how to address your comment, He only used GOEX.

But, I will leave it at that thought.

BRS, I understand what you're saying, and I do agree with it to some extent. Mike's books certainly are an excellent starting point. I just wanted to point out that a fellow is not limited to the data in them, and that some critical information is missing from them.

As to your fears about the effects of what you deem (rather arbitrarily, with all respect) "extreme" and "excessive" compression, I just want to point out again that it was standard in most of Winchester's original loadings. I tend to think they had a pretty good idea what they were doing. I think a lot of it is just perspective- nowhere in my world is there anything "extreme" about 36-40 grains of 2f or 3f under 217 grains of lead. As to crushing in compression, I have removed my compressed charges from cases a number of times for various reasons -dug it out with a dental pick- and I think you'd be shocked at how relatively intact the grains are. There's some crushing for sure, especially at the top near the base of the bullet, but the crushing is very minimal.

One more thought- if you dig through the data spreadsheets on Bryan's fine website (it can be a little confusing to navigate) you can see actual measured chamber pressures and muzzle velocities. There aren't many unanswered questions, and the numbers are there.