Excellent historical data on the 44 WCF.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Jy0pGqWPRx2HOQqufbcnEM1lv6tCWBJsCOB8vLIDOIg/edit?gid=1905899731#gid=1905899731

https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester

Quote from: Froogal on December 19, 2024, 08:31:41 AM" it just didn't seem that my life was going to change all that much."

But you have to wonder    How the WORLD changed.

Would we have been as involved in Viet Nam as we were with Johnson?

 Surely, Kennedy would have had a second term. The Bay of Pigs fiasco and the Russian Standoff still fresh.
Would Nixon have prevailed in 68?

Ben Ladan was the mastermind in the 1st World Trade attack, what if Clinton had served fatal judgement retribution, then?
Instead, he was left to carry out Sept. 11.

History is so interwoven with the present.

 

My breach face after finishing with the India Stone:



A few more residual scratches than I would like, but now smooth to the touch.  It now cycles through completely with no hangups or stalls.  Only thing is when rotating the cylinder by hand I still feel some hesitation, but only on one particular chamber.  My assumption is that chamber may have been cut a thousandth or two short.  When cycling by hammer though no hesitation is felt.

Quote from: Little Dalton on December 19, 2024, 08:28:17 AMI have the same understanding of the granulations. Due to the compression involved, I doubt there's going to be a significant difference between 2f and 3f. What brand of 3f do you have? Bryan has some data in his spreadsheets using Goex 3f, which you can compare to his and John Kort's results with both Swiss and Goex 2f. Go to this page on Bryan's site, and click on the small blue links at the bottom of the page starting with "Black Powder":
https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/ballistics-handloading/44-40-google-docs-the-data/part-2-44-40-google-docs?authuser=0

Compare that data with John's results (which I know you've seen already) here:
https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/contributors/john-kort/two-peas-in-a-pod-by-john-kort?authuser=0

As to the mention of using a neck expander plug to compress, it seems less than ideal. The compression plug needs to be fairly flat on the face to leave the compressed powder with a good fit to the flat base of the bullet without having to compress further than necessary.

Just trying to avoid buying another die if I can help it.  I'm open to suggestions.

I'm using Swiss.  I have both 3F and 4F.

I was in 7th grade. We were all outside on noon break. The bell rang for classes to resume, and we all gathered in front of the building waiting for the doors to open and be let in, but instead, the principle came out and made the announcement of what had just happened. Some of the girls started crying. The rest of us just kind of stood there. The reality of the event hadn't really sunk in until I got home that day, and being 12 years old at the time, it just didn't seem that my life was going to change all that much. I did my chicken chores, played outside for a bit, and then went to supper.

Quote from: 9245 on December 18, 2024, 11:58:37 PMI did, it was interesting, though I'm curious what 3F would do vs 2F.

My understanding is that they loaded with 2F in the 19th century, however "2F" in the 19th century was closer to 3F today.  Also all I have is 3F and 4F.

He mentioned though using a neck expander die for compressing the charges though, but how do you do that?

I have the same understanding of the granulations. Due to the compression involved, I doubt there's going to be a significant difference between 2f and 3f. What brand of 3f do you have? Bryan has some data in his spreadsheets using Goex 3f, which you can compare to his and John Kort's results with both Swiss and Goex 2f. Go to this page on Bryan's site, and click on the small blue links at the bottom of the page starting with "Black Powder":
https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/ballistics-handloading/44-40-google-docs-the-data/part-2-44-40-google-docs?authuser=0

Compare that data with John's results (which I know you've seen already) here:
https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/contributors/john-kort/two-peas-in-a-pod-by-john-kort?authuser=0

As to the mention of using a neck expander plug to compress, it seems less than ideal. The compression plug needs to be fairly flat on the face to leave the compressed powder with a good fit to the flat base of the bullet without having to compress further than necessary.

Quote from: Black River Smith on December 18, 2024, 07:30:49 PMLittle Dalton,
I did read all of John Korts internet info and also had some discussion with him, here on the forums.  But, I do not agree with the excessive compression idea to get more powder and higher velocities.
To me loading BP in a casing and compressing -- is an approach to create a 'nice solid' column of lets say 2F grain size of powder.  But when you take a casing with excess powder and extreme (more than 1/8" to me) compression, then you are not just compacting you starting to crush, grind, pulverized the granules from the 2F size to a 3F or 4F grain sizing.  That change in grain size is what is increasing the velocities along with just some extra powder.

This is just how I envision what is happening in the casing to make room for the bullet seating.

As a 'beginning' BP loader, I would rather see '9245' start off with the basics of loading blackpowder rather than jumping right to John Korts level of 'extreme' experimentation.

As far as Mike's books, I think he gave us 'New Cowboy Shooter'(like 9245) some very good reloading information for the older designed firearms, back when most people, where just trying to get in the New Sport.  He covered both general smokeless and general blackpowder loading for whatever you would like using.

With Copyrights of 1995, 1997 and 2010, I can't say just how many of the 'New' powders like Swiss, Wano & others existed back when he wrote them.  I myself only used Pyrodex, before all the newer subs came out in the 2000's, and still did up to 2008.  So, I do not know how to address your comment, He only used GOEX.

But, I will leave it at that thought.

BRS, I understand what you're saying, and I do agree with it to some extent. Mike's books certainly are an excellent starting point. I just wanted to point out that a fellow is not limited to the data in them, and that some critical information is missing from them.

As to your fears about the effects of what you deem (rather arbitrarily, with all respect) "extreme" and "excessive" compression, I just want to point out again that it was standard in most of Winchester's original loadings. I tend to think they had a pretty good idea what they were doing. I think a lot of it is just perspective- nowhere in my world is there anything "extreme" about 36-40 grains of 2f or 3f under 217 grains of lead. As to crushing in compression, I have removed my compressed charges from cases a number of times for various reasons -dug it out with a dental pick- and I think you'd be shocked at how relatively intact the grains are. There's some crushing for sure, especially at the top near the base of the bullet, but the crushing is very minimal.

One more thought- if you dig through the data spreadsheets on Bryan's fine website (it can be a little confusing to navigate) you can see actual measured chamber pressures and muzzle velocities. There aren't many unanswered questions, and the numbers are there.

I resurrect this thread because I found this Video on U-tube, I found interesting.
 There are landmark historical events for every generation.
The moments one remembers a lifetime, in some cases several.
Such is the case for my own Baby Boomer generation.
It was November 22, 1963 it was a Friday. I sat in Mr. Strokes science 9th grade class.
It was the lase class of the day, when the news crackled of the antiquated PA system.
I could beardly understand the weak message. The 61 years since has fogged my memory of the event only slightly.
 I don't recall if the school PA announcement, stated JFK was deceased or that I saw Walter Cronkrite in the CBS Special Bulletin.
I have in fact seen that Bulletin replayed several times.
I do remember coming home immediately after school and the NEWS was on the Television.
 I have had the opportunity to visit the Book Depository Museum at Dealy Square.
It is sobering to go there, and pear out the sniper's window.
I have been to Arlington, and the Kennedy Memorial. Which for me, is somewhat overshadowed by Arlington itself.

I can remember almost with total clarity the event, and that of 911.
These are annals in time, such as Pearl Harbour just the mention brings back near total recall where you were.   

I use a 24" drop tube for all calibers I load BP for, but I don't compress after. I used a set of Lyman dies in 44/40 for decades until a few years ago when I switched to the RCBS Cowboy dies, and this year I switches from the Lee FCD to a Redding profile crimp die, which I like better. I guess the only real advice I can offer is just because it's less expensive, doesn't make it better. I have a couple sets of Lee dies, but only by default as I couldn't get what I needed in Lyman or RCBC, which I personally think are far superior to Lee. That's just my opinion.

See this thread was started back in Sept of '24 but if ya haven't decided yet Doc or anyone else is wondering, I have been using the Lee double cavity 8mm mold mentioned by Silver Creek Slim for my two WW2 era K98k Mausers for approx 9-10 years. Cast them to approx wheel weight hardness, size .324", gas check, and use a variety of powders for reduced 8mm velocity loads. All are very comfortable to shoot and accurate.

 Use Red Dot, IMR and Hodgeon 4227, and Acc 5744 powders for the most part. None of the loads are 'barn burners' but provide cheaper shooting than using jacketed bullets and just as enjoyable. Have never had any problems when firing, ie inserting (feeding) rounds into chamber, ejecting. Keep brass to recommended specs also careful not to have excessive crimp which can sometimes cause a hang-up as the OP mentioned.