I've been working on getting a 454 Rossi R92 to feed 45 Colt reliably and it certainly seems (non-surprisingly I guess) that longer cartridges work better.
Max 45 Colt length spec is 1.600". Max 454 Casull length spec is 1.77". I can get 10 into the magazine as long as they're around 1.75". So I'd like to load some Cowboy-powered loads to a COAL of around 1.75".
I made some 1.75" dummy rounds with 45 Colt brass and they did seem to feed pretty good, but I was having problems getting my 250 grain bullets to stay seated with so much of the bullet sticking out of the case.
So I had the thought to use Casull brass, but at that point I'd be using an even more cavernous chamber, and also a small rifle primer, so it'd leave me in a total desert as far as published load data goes. (As far as I know.)
Does anybody have any insight on a jumping off point for a Casull Cowboy load?
I've been loading 1.6" 45 Colt with a 250 grain bullet over 6.0 grains of Green Dot, which gives me a consistent 1000 fps out of the 20" R92 barrel. I'd like to stay around that level or a bit slower, but with a Casull case at 1.75". And I'd love to use my same 250 grain bullets.
Or I guess another approach would be to use a longer (and heavier) than usual bullet in a 45 Colt case?
(I'm quite inexperienced at all of this so apologies if I'm not making any sense at all.)
Is your Rossi chambered for 454? If it is chambered for 45 Colt, the 454 brass should not fit (chamber will be too short).
Sounds like it's the one chambered for .454, which Rossi does make.
:) Begle1 ;)
I have to ask, what is your intended use of this rifle. If your intent is to use it for CAS, you have the wrong rifle. Also, down-loading a large capacity case is a Krap Shoot. The reason you don't see any loading data in that direction, nobody that will admit to it is doing it.
Oft times, the end result you seek just isn't practical with the equipment and sundries you have.
It is the R92 chambered in 454.
I read some mixed reviews before I bought it regarding how they fed 45 Colt. I was perhaps a tad optimistic.
I wanted to use it for CAS as well as a short range deer rifle. I live in Hawaii, we have a lot of rain and axis deer that hide in grass taller than you are. A stainless, lightweight, heavy caliber rifle is near perfect for wading through wet brush.
I knew it wouldn't be the most competitive CAS rifle but I was hoping it would at least feed consistently. I'm okay giving up a few seconds to a short-stroked toggle gun, but sometimes that turns into over 10 seconds as I need to manually guide rounds, work the lever back and forth extra times to get rounds seated, or (the worst) have rounds pop up too far and stovepipe as the lever goes forward. I'm sure some of that is the gun and some is me, but it does seem like it can all be mitigated with the right bullets at a 1.75" COAL.
Check some loading manuals. As long as it's a lead bullet at less than 1400fps muzzle velocity it is legal.
A few years back I had a Rossi '92 that was stamped 45 colt, but it would chamber the 454. I never shot one in it but they chambered and fed easily.
wM1
The one point I would make, and it is qualified, is to put in a filler or wads with your load so the powder stays at the bottom of the case when the round actually goes off.
Howdy Begle,
I'm not an expert, but why not make a few of the longer loads with your regular .45 Colt load of powder and see how that works? You can see what velocities you get and check for consistent firing. Then maybe adjust as you think you need to.
Rev. Chase
ps: I have not tried this and if questioned later I will deny everything and act indignant.
Any staring load of Bullseye under a 255 grain Lee, no filler.
Thanks guys.
Most book loads are so far beyond what I'm looking for they don't appear helpful, but Hogdon's website does list a Trail Boss load that would be what I'm looking for:
250 grain bullet, Trail Boss, 1.680" COAL, 6.7 grains starting @ 862 FPS and 14,800 CUP, 9.0 grains ending at 1,011 FPS and 19,300 CUP
I imagine those FPS's are out of a short barrel, but they look close to what I seek, IF ONLY I COULD GET TRAIL BOSS.
Another option I've seen discussed is to cut down S&W 460 cases, logic being that the large rifle primer does less weird things than the small rifle primer, and is more forgiving. But I'm not too eager to go that far off out to sea.
Or I could figure out how to get the bullets seated in the 45 Colt cases better. When I was playing around with my 1.75" 45 Colt dummy rounds, after a few trips through the gun, some had turned into 1.65" dummy rounds. My bullets didn't want to stay put that far forward in the case. Maybe if I could got some longer bullets, 300 grainers or so?
I used to use Bullseye years ago for 38 wadcutters, quit when I discovered Win 231, a much better powder, not as temperamental, it's been 40 some years since I've used Bullseye. Some years ago I started using Tite-group in place of 231 for alot of loadings, believe it has advantages over 231. Have used it in loads from 9mm, 38&357, 45 acp, and 45 Colt. Another great powder I've used with great success is Red Dot, the old standby shotgun powder. Have used it alot in 45 Colt with heavy lead bullet loads and its one of my favorite for that caliber. I have used Trail Boss also in the big Ol' 45 Colt, no problems with it, it is hard to come by, still have around 3#'s left over. FWIW, I never have loaded any 454 Casull rounds.
My current plan is to set the bullet out of a 45 Colt case and crimp the bejeesus out of it and see if that works. Maybe I've been overthinking things.
If that doesn't work, then maybe I'll just buy a brass stretcher.
I see no problem using the casual case and higher volume powders? Max level 45 colt loads might just fall right in with what your looking for.
:) Begle1 ;)
Nah. None of the Above. Just stuff 3f APP in the case, what ever case, to the Bullet Base, whatever bullet and make music!! Super simple.
Quote from: Galloway on January 25, 2025, 09:07:56 AMI see no problem using the casual case and higher volume powders? Max level 45 colt loads might just fall right in with what your looking for.
What would suitable higher volume powders be? (Trail Boss seems unobtainable.)
How differently does the Casull's small rifle primer behave on light loads than the 45 Colt's large pistol primer? I'm afraid the primer difference gives me one too many variables I'm not familiar with. I've seen a lot of discussion about how the primers cause problems near the top end of the envelope, but not many guys are pushing the bottom end of the envelope like I'm looking to do.
There's also usually a big gap in book loads from where the 45 Colt ends and the Casull begins.
For example, Hodgdon loads for 250 grain LRNFP 45 Colt:
5.0-6.2 grains Titegroup, 716-881 FPS
6.5-7.8 grains Universal, 742-941 FPS
Hodgdon loads for 250 grain NOS JHP Casull:
9.7-11.2 grains Titegroup, 1193-1298 FPS
10.8-12.0 grains Universal, 1221-1290 FPS
"Ruger Only" 45 Colt loads for 250 grain bullets are sort of in the middle:
8-9.5 grains Titegroup, 983-1124 FPS
Titegroup is the only powder I see listed for all three, and it's advertising even says that "powder position in large cases like 45 Colt has virtually no effect on velocity and performance", so I reckon it'd be my best shot. But how would I know how low I could go? Is there a method to "work
down" to a safe load?
Quote from: Coffinmaker on January 25, 2025, 08:06:50 PM:) Begle1 ;)
Nah. None of the Above. Just stuff 3f APP in the case, what ever case, to the Bullet Base, whatever bullet and make music!! Super simple.
I'm assuming this is some sort of blackpowder stuff you're talking about, which I know nothing about, but sounds like an idea I can get behind.
When I search for "3f APP" all I get are results for a dating app specializing in threesomes, which I also know nothing about, but also sounds like an idea I can get behind.
:) Oh yessiree Bob ;)
Get behind all of that.
APP = American Pioneer Powder. Readily available and shipped to your door. Bullets by Scarlett is your happy place for bullets and powder. Additionally:
When I still dabbled in that Fad, Heathen, Smokeless stuff, my "go-to" powder was/is TightGroup. It is not position sensitive in the case and not particularly temperature sensitive.
There are no real guide lines for seeking the Bottom. You will strictly be "on-you-own." However: I can relate when you load squibs and the projectile sticks in the barrel, you've arrived at the very bottom. It's a lot like reaching the end of the internet. Start Over ::)
Quote from: Begle1 on January 26, 2025, 12:17:58 AMWhat would suitable higher volume powders be? (Trail Boss seems unobtainable.)
How differently does the Casull's small rifle primer behave on light loads than the 45 Colt's large pistol primer? I'm afraid the primer difference gives me one too many variables I'm not familiar with. I've seen a lot of discussion about how the primers cause problems near the top end of the envelope, but not many guys are pushing the bottom end of the envelope like I'm looking to do.
There's also usually a big gap in book loads from where the 45 Colt ends and the Casull begins.
For example, Hodgdon loads for 250 grain LRNFP 45 Colt:
5.0-6.2 grains Titegroup, 716-881 FPS
6.5-7.8 grains Universal, 742-941 FPS
Hodgdon loads for 250 grain NOS JHP Casull:
9.7-11.2 grains Titegroup, 1193-1298 FPS
10.8-12.0 grains Universal, 1221-1290 FPS
"Ruger Only" 45 Colt loads for 250 grain bullets are sort of in the middle:
8-9.5 grains Titegroup, 983-1124 FPS
Titegroup is the only powder I see listed for all three, and it's advertising even says that "powder position in large cases like 45 Colt has virtually no effect on velocity and performance", so I reckon it'd be my best shot. But how would I know how low I could go? Is there a method to "work down" to a safe load?
I'm assuming this is some sort of blackpowder stuff you're talking about, which I know nothing about, but sounds like an idea I can get behind.
When I search for "3f APP" all I get are results for a dating app specializing in threesomes, which I also know nothing about, but also sounds like an idea I can get behind.
Titegroup is the opposite of higher volume powder. Even though it works good I'm not a huge fan of using it in 45 colt or 44wcf. Even though its claimed to be one of the less position sensitive powders, that small of volume can be pretty much anywhere in a case not even in contact with the primer. Got to be careful using it because I think you could at least get triple load of it in those cases. Unless you can find pressure tested load data I'd abandon the idea of using the 454 case.
While I'm not specifically recommending it, you could contact Hodgdon and ask if they have data for using Titegroup in .454 Casull. There's a good chance they have data for it even if they don't publish it.
:) Well ;)
After we "all" hash this one out, I have to reiterate my original thoughts. It boils down to trying to use a Chainsaw for delicate Brain surgery. The 454 Rossi is simply the wrong instrument for the desired application. My personal bestest suggestion is to peddle the 454 Rossi and if the Rossi '92 is your par amore, buy another in a more suitable cartridge.
I'm sure I'll end up with a short-stroked 38 or 45 toggle link gun at some point; if anybody ever sees a great deal on one let me know.
In the meantime I'd still like to make the R92 run as well as possible. I have a few new things to try now thanks to ya'll's help. I'll report back on my findings.
Very interesting. My R92 .454/.45 will feed any RN/RNHP/RNFP and LeveRevolution ammo with no problem. It will not feed WC/SWC in either cartridge. I reload the .45 but don't fire enough .454 to make it worthwhile. In a typical year I fire one .454 for zero confirmation and one round to take a deer.
Quote from: Jeremiah Jones on January 28, 2025, 12:21:09 PMVery interesting. My R92 .454/.45 will feed any RN/RNHP/RNFP and LeveRevolution ammo with no problem. It will not feed WC/SWC in either cartridge. I reload the .45 but don't fire enough .454 to make it worthwhile. In a typical year I fire one .454 for zero confirmation and one round to take a deer.
I also probably need to get more into the guts of the rifle.
I've seen a few conversations with folks talking about shimming things, and I haven't played around with that yet:
https://forums.sassnet.com/index.php?/topic/329844-rossi-92-jacking-out-live-rounds/
I bought the DVD from StevesGunz, but I didn't see how any of the modifications Nate discusses would improve feeding. According to Nate, "some guns just are sensitive to some ammo"... I'd rather this gun be allergic to Casull than 45 Colt. Like you, I'll probably only ever be shooting one Casull at a time.
And the biggest Casull rounds don't even fit into the loading gate... The only 454's any of my local gun stores had were DoubleTap's 400 grainers; 400 grains at 1675 fps, about as much muzzle energy as a 308, but they turn the gun into a breech loader!
for .454 I use 260 gr. Winchester Platinum Tip. They feed with no problem. They are RNHP.
Quote from: Jeremiah Jones on January 28, 2025, 12:21:09 PMVery interesting. My R92 .454/.45 will feed any RN/RNHP/RNFP and LeveRevolution ammo with no problem. It will not feed WC/SWC in either cartridge. I reload the .45 but don't fire enough .454 to make it worthwhile. In a typical year I fire one .454 for zero confirmation and one round to take a deer.
How fast do you run your R92?
If I go methodically slow, then most anything feeds. Jams come with speed.
The guys I shoot with say I'm "outrunning the gun".
I had mine in a vise a couple days ago and cycled through a whole bag of assorted "snap caps" that I made while testing different bullet shapes and COAL's.
I think that when I go fast, the tip of the cartridge lifts up a bit, and is still in the air a bit when it starts getting pushed forward. This causes it to jam; I need to re-lever it or push the tip down into the chamber with my finger to get it chambered.
But watching in slow motion, it's pretty evident why bullet shape is a huge factor, because the bullet is what guides the cartridge into the chamber. Certain bullet shapes work better at certain COAL's; as the cartridge bobbles a bit coming up into position, the point of the bullet needs to be in the right place to get itself into the chamber, and then the
shoulders of the bullet need to be the right shape and at the right distance to guide the brass into the chamber before the brass edge gets pinched against the chamber lip. The magic seems to all be in the shoulders.
I also hypothesize that heavier bullets may keep the cartridge tip seated down in place better and reduce the chances of the cartridge flipping up and stovepiping.
No any major ah-ha!'s as I go about figured out what everybody else already knows, but it's pretty obvious watching in slow motion why bullet shape and COAL is such an important factor, especially once you start going fast. I develop a greater appreciation of the toggle link design with every passing week.
:) Begle1 ;)
Don't remember if I have mentioned before, and I'm too lazy to go back and re-read, but there are a number of things required to make a '92 "run."
Starting at the front, the Ejector spring is too heavy and needs replaced. The extractor is sprung too heavy and needs reduced. All the guide ways in the receiver need the sharp edges broken as do the sharp edges on the bolt. The Lever latch needs polished and its spring reduced or replaced. the raceways for the Locking Bars need polished as do the locking bars. Clearance the Cartridge Guides in the receiver sides. The Right Side Guide may well need shimmed to stop/prevent stovepiping. The right side guide should just "kiss" the cartridge side. Firing Pin needs changed to a "One Piece" and spring reduced. The Magazine spring is likely way too heavy and too long. You only need about two inches of spring beyond the end of the magazine. Needs a stainless magazine follower. Before you take all this on, contact Nate Kiowa Jones at "Stevesgunz". Invest in his DVD for tuning a '92 and invest in his "Parts Kit." A '92 can be made to run extremely smooth and fast. Understand though, you're still going to be fighting one very large Elephant in The Room. The wrong '92. You are correct though. Bullet shape and COAL are very important for a fast funning '92. Burma Shave
PS: I MAY be thinking about the wrong Firing Pin. I have the memory of a Gnat. Look at the Firing Pin anyway.
So living where I am, black powder options are a challenge.
I can get Hodgdon Triple Seven.
Would that be safe to put some into a 454 case? I gather that it's a rather powerful powder so I may not want to fill the case completely...
"Powerful" is relative. It's more powerful than black powder, but less powerful than the smokeless powders usually used for .454 Casull. A full load of Triple 7 should still be safe for a .454 Casull rifle.
:) Begle1 ;)
To begin, Triple Seven is not recommended as a cartridge powder by the manufacturer. It is intended for use in muzzle loading arms as "lose ammunition." A lot of shooters put it suppositories anyway, so you pays your money and takes your chances. Personally, I never put it in suppositories. I haven't actually used it in years.
If you're looking for some smoke and fun I am a "poster kid" for APP. Easy loading in any cartridge. Lots of smoke. Easy cleanup, elimination of lubes. Any lube. No lube is required. the "recipe" is dirt simple. Load to the base of bullet, nice firm crimp and GO. Bullets by Scarlett will ship it to your front porch.
Okay, thanks guys.
I live in Hawaii so logistics for all this stuff is a bear.