Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L

Okay, we've lost our source of the Big Lube Bullet Molds (Dick Dastardly), we've lost probably the best known source for cast Big Lube bullets (Mark Whyte).  Some of us have lost our secondary sources for bullets, so let's pool our resources and figure out how to keep us in lead.

Everyone may not be a disciple of the deep wide groove bullets like the Big Lube Styles.  Some are currently not available as molds.  Let's see what we can do to remedy the mold availability. I'm already working the Snake Bite Grease Wagon substitute (you'll like it).  It would also be great if we had someone who wanted to get into casting that could fill the void Mark left.

The next bullet for me is the .44 Mav Dutchman replacement, though I know the majority of y'all will want something like the PRS 250gr .45 or the 200gr .45.  If you can send me specifics on the dimensions of the PRS I would appreciate it.  I have some somewhere and can't find them, I don't shoot much .45 Colt.  I can post or send a sketch indicating the dimensions I need (actually for any of the bullets you would like again).

Pipe up about other bullets you want to see.  There are already mold replacements for the EPP-UG for the .44 Cap & Ball guns, there is also a replacement for the EPP-UG 36.  There is also a nice 130gr-135gr mold for .36 Navy Bullets (a big lube variant which works well).  There are also some .44 and .45 molds currently available I am evaluating (but not big lube).  I have contacted Accurate Molds, MP molds and Lee.  Tom at Accurate isn't an issue, but his groove depth may be unless I can get him to give us a bit deeper.  Lee acts like they are too busy to even talk unless we have a big group order.  The group orders over on CastBoolits.com have gone South since some problems during the pandemic.  We could get exact duplicates of the Bullets of the Big Lube style we are used to from Lee but as I said they act like it isn't important to them.  Their catalog has also shrunk a lot.  And Mihec over at MP molds is covered up as well.

So to get started vote above and then post what you have. Don't just say "I use a Lee .45 mold".  Tell us which mold by number or post a picture of the bullet if you don't know what the model number is.

Oh, and you can vote for as many of the lines as apply and change you vote later if you wish.  This is about gathering information...

One last thing, I have no financial interest or direct affiliation with any of the vendors I have been working or talking with.  My only interest is for anyone who wants to shoot Real Powder to have the best bullets available for that purpose.

~Mako

Well, you didn't have enough options, but I picked two.  I have bought biglube .44 "toggle" bullets from Slim, and still have some left.  Plus a friend gave me 100 Mav's lubed with SBG.  When I run out of those, I can maybe get more Mav's from the friend.  He said his mold is worn and he was not happy when I told him Dick D was out of the business. 

I also bought some sort of 125gr bullet from Slim, not even sure if it was big lube.  But all my shooting is CAS and my longest barrel is 20", so I'm not a big needer of biglubes. 

I'm now buying BP-lubed bullets for my .38's and .44 Spcl/Russians from Missouri Bullet Co.  They are not big lube.  I had tried Desperado bullets before since their lube is supposed to be BP compatible but I did not have good luck with it in .45 and 32-20 so I relubed with my lube.

For years I just bought smokeless bullets and melted out the crayon lube for all calibers.  I relubed with an old Lyman 45 for rifle use (started with pan lubing, but too tedious), and used no lube at all in pistol rounds, just lubing with butter flavored Crisco over the first two rounds in the cylinder.

A guy on the SASS Wire named Dallas McBoomboom is supposed to be making some biglubes now.

I cast and shoot the old Lyman 358311 158gr RN FB in .357 Mag cases. In order to use real gunpowder i need to put two thin discs of medium brood core beeswax on top of the powder before seating the bullet to prevent fouling out the barrel in my Rossi '92. I can shoot that load all day but it only gets about a 6" group at 50 yards. If I use 3F 777 I don't need the beeswax and can shoot all day and get 1.5-2" groups at 50 yds. I use a BP lube on all my bullets regardless of the powder used: 50/50 beeswax/deer tallow.

I ahve and cast in both the PRS 250gr .45 or the 200gr .45.
In an old thompson center .45 maxi mold
In an older lyman hollow base .454 colt mold.

Looking for one of those largish heavyish .38 molds Mako was talking about... the catalog is a tish confusing at the moment.

Not giving any of them up, you will have to ask whoever is the executor of my will when i finally go in 60 or 75 years....

Yhs
Prof marvel

Quote from: Professor Marvel on April 07, 2024, 11:37:17 PM
I ahve and cast in both the PRS 250gr .45 or the 200gr .45.
In an old thompson center .45 maxi mold
In an older lyman hollow base .454 colt mold.

Looking for one of those largish heavyish .38 molds Mako was talking about... the catalog is a tish confusing at the moment.

Not giving any of them up, you will have to ask whoever is the executor of my will when i finally go in 60 or 75 years....

Yhs
Prof marvel

Perfesser,
Are you talking about the 130-135gr .36 C&B mold?

If so here it is:

https://accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=38-135C (https://accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=38-135C)

If you are talking about the 160gr Grease Wagon analog, Tom doesn't have it cataloged yet.  I'm still waiting on him to send me a link to approve the "design". Odd since I actually submitted the design, but that is the way he has done it in the past as well.

~Mako

Ah My Good Mako

That 169 grain monster is what I am after LOL ... It is so long I may have to be satisfied with a veeeeeery sloooooow muzzle vel lol....

Prf marvle

All:
Use the template below for reporting what you have and the Bullet design(s) you would like to see.

I already have good dimensions for the:

• .38 160 gr Snake Bite Grease Wagon 
• .44 200gr Mav Dutchman
• 36 EPP-UG 
• 44 EPP-UG (.45 cal)

Just send me the numbers per the assigned lettered designations,  "J" may not even exist on some bullets except exactly where the Crimp groove ends.  Some bullets have a stepped down diameter that would correspond to a "J" dimension beyond the groove.  Just send me what you have.  If there are any questions just ask me, don't be bashful.

~Mako

For loading big lube type bullets in my blackpowder cartridges I use these molds from Accurate Molds:
38-155-C for 38 Special
401-185-C for 38-40
428-215-C for 44-40
45-195-C used for 1860 Army conversions in 45 S&W and cut down 45 Colt cases
45-251-C for 45 Colt
Other than having a large lube groove there are arguments for selecting the three similar design molds(38-40, 44-40, 45 Colt). Some years back the late John Kort (AKA 44WCF) did extensive long range testing with the 44-40 black powder cartridge in a Uberti 1873 Winchester with a 24" barrel. To sum it up, with then available bullet designs, only Swiss proved useful at long range because either available bullets were not accurate at that range or didn't have enough lube capacity to keep fouling down in that 24" barrel. It is my understanding he designed 428-215-C and after much testing that bullet design was useful with most available black powders, not just Swiss. I seem to recall Mr. Kort testing that 428-215-C/Swiss powder out to 500 or 600 yards. Those results convinced me to obtain that mold which I was quite happy with. So it didn't take much persuasion for me to order similar designs from Accurate Molds, especially for my favorite, the 38-40. I have shot two day State Matches and not done anything more than a wipe down for the next day with all the above listed bullet molds, so in my opinion they all carry sufficient lube for any practical purpose.

Navy Six,
I'm assuming those are all Accurate Molds

36-155C   for   38-155-C for 38 Special
40-185C   for   401-185-C for 38-40
43-215C   for   428-215-C for 44-40
45-195-C used for 1860 Army conversions in 45 S&W and cut down 45 Colt cases
45-251-C for 45 Colt

Speaking of John's .44 bullet.  He never could get the Mav Dutchman to shoot accurately beyond cowboy ranges.  He thought the super deep groove caused that situation (instability and a weird center of gravity) ,yet he never was openly critical of the bullet.  But that was John, he was a gentleman  the last I heard from him was in either 2017 or 2018 I think, I've been meaning to ask someone who would know, when did he pass away? I was out of the country a lot from 2015 to 2023 and didn't always have access to the bandwidth necessary to keep up with things.

I used to send him old cartridges I ran across traveling.  He loved taking them apart and determining the powder type and the actual load weight (sometimes volume) especially in American cartridges.  I tell you more about what he determined the actual way BP was loaded in a later post. I still have messages from him on this forum and  I used to have them from the Open Range.  I also have emails from him when we were working on .44 Henry Flat Rimfire cartridges in 2013 and he was finishing up his work with the 430-215C you are using.  Some of the emails are from his other alias(S like w30WCF, or simply his John Kort jkort43@roadrunner.com email.  He was actually w44WCF on this and the Open Range Forums I see you forget to put the "w" in front like I always do.

Actually his bullet designs I know of at least three that Tom makes are what is making me consider whether or not we need the full .05" groove depth instead of the .03 we can get right now.  He was telling us years ago you would get left over lube in the grooves of recovered Mav Dutchman bullets and when I recovered some I saw the same thing, unused lube.

So are the catalog numbers you are showing indicating the as cast (dropped) diameter you ordered?  I'm curious, do you have an original Winchester '73?   I'm asking because I was wondering about the Ø.428 mold.  Have you ever paid much attention to the shape of his .44 bullet?  He has an elongated ogive made by dropping the diameter in front of the crimping groove,  He had been trying to get a secant ogive instead of a tangent but he was having trouble explaining the exact geometry to Tom.  Not that Tom couldn't understand but they were looking at it differently.  The '66s and '73s don't care but the nose on his bullet design feed better in '92s and Marlins.  Well he worked it out...

~Mako

Mako, yes, those molds are all Accurate molds designs. The 401-185-C and 428-215-C are how they are listed in the catalog but you can order them at different widths. I simply ordered mine at .401 and .428 diameter as that's what works for me across the board in Colt and Uberti revolvers and Uberti lever guns. I don't own an original 1873.
Boy do I remember the Open Range. That is where I was following Mr. Korts experiments with the 44-40. I hope you do explain how he was able to determine black powder type from dis-assembled shells. That sounds fascinating and it would be a shame if that type of knowledge was lost.
Of course I also remember you and John Corney--AKA John Boy--going back and forth at times. I had to smile because I knew John Boy well and shot Cowboy Matches with him for many years. Unfortunately John also passed away not quite two years ago I believe. John Boy also shot some with John Kort as he became interested in long range buffalo shoots. I think it was Ridgeway PA where this took place. John eventually shut down the Open Range but left it up and available for a few years.

I cast my own bullets using Big Lube molds I got from Dick Dastardly. I have 38 Snakebite Greesewagon, Dick's 38-40 mold that is a scaled down Mav-Dutchman, a 44 Mav-Dutchman that I use with BP and smokeless, for 44 Russian, 44-40, 44 Special and 44 Magnum.  In 45 I have the short 45 bullet (190-200 grain?) and the big 255 grain bullet, and Dick's 45-70 bullet, 400 grains I think, without looking.  I bought almost every mold he made.
   Has Dick passed on or just out of the bullet mold business?

Snakebite was kind enough to share his bullet design on the SASS Wire

Navy Six,
John (Kort) was of the opinion and I now agree with him that many commercially loaded black powder shells were not loaded the way some people insist that Real Powder "has to be loaded".  That is totally full cases, no air space and compression being a necessity.

By disassembling cartridges he could see just how much powder was actually in the case volume wise and also the weight of the charge.  He found that there was a lot of better powder than he expected.  The majority was well glazed and had been well dusted because even though it didn't still have the super glossy finished we find of some of the premium powders from Europe you could tell it had that finish at one time.  There was very little powder dust in the cases where there had been little degradation mainly from moist environments or just simple atmospheric humidity. He was convinced the ammunition companies loaded by weight based on multiple samples of the same shell from different time periods.  He might find some that were loosely packed probably caused by settling or even break down form handling for decades that had very similar weights to the same cartridge with little or no free space.

In talking with him he was suggesting that it was the total density of the powder that determined the potential energy of the powder.  Then the grain size which determines the surface area sets the burn rate.  There is a lot more to it but he noted the majority of the powders he found in pistol size cartridges was actually about 18 mesh instead of 16 (FFg) or 20 (FFFg).  Some of the powders were more dimensionally uniform in the three axis and others were "flatter'.  This is some of the things I meant when I wrote he was "identifying" the powder, it would probably be more correct to say classifying bay characteristics.

He even reloaded some of the old powder (I believe he wrote about some of the tests on Open Range) using modern cases and bullets to compare the velocities with modern powder.  He wasn't like the majority of Cowboy Shooters he had the same attitude as Col. Whelen that "Only accurate rifles are interesting."   For a while there it looked like he and John Boy were more interested in screening powder than shooting it, I don't know if you remember that.

There is a lot more, I need to re-read some old emails.  Below is the way you determine the density of a mixture like BP.  Black powder is a mixture not a compound which is one of the reasons it doesn't break down with time like nitro cellulose based powder.  Below is how you determine the total density of powder (using the "traditional" 15/10/75 ratio)

~Mako

Quote from: Sedalia Dave on April 08, 2024, 10:13:58 PM
Snakebite was kind enough to share his bullet design on the SASS Wire

Sedalia,
Thank you very much for the sketch.
Mav Dutchman also posted his design a long time ago, and Dick posted one of the Mav Dutchman which doesn't look at all like the mold he sold.

I already had that sketch from Snakebite.  It was one of the things that confused me when I started working on a replacement because I seen a partially dimensioned drawing that the  Lee Mold was made to and it is different.  If you have those Grease Wagon bullets from the Big Lube molds measure them, you will find several dimensions differ.  The biggest difference is the nose diameter which changes the profile of the Bullet and is noticeable and the crimp groove on the cast bullets is not as deep or large as the sketch he posted.

The Grease wagon groove geometry on the Lee Molds actually differ quite a bit from the .40, .44 and .45 Big Lube bullets.  Not just in depth but the side wall is not the inclusive 20° angle we see on the larger bullets.  That is good for us because Tom will make those angle but not the sharper angles of the bigger bullets.  So the .38 is an easy true to shape replacement (and the crimp groove is more like what Snakebite envisioned it).

Look at the actual bullet picture and the model for the Mold I am having Accurate make right now, we'll soon have a replacement.  See them below.

~Mako

Quote from: 44caliberkid on April 08, 2024, 09:46:17 PM
I cast my own bullets using Big Lube molds I got from Dick Dastardly. I have 38 Snakebite Greesewagon, Dick's 38-40 mold that is a scaled down Mav-Dutchman, a 44 Mav-Dutchman that I use with BP and smokeless, for 44 Russian, 44-40, 44 Special and 44 Magnum.  In 45 I have the short 45 bullet (190-200 grain?) and the big 255 grain bullet, and Dick's 45-70 bullet, 400 grains I think, without looking.  I bought almost every mold he made.
   Has Dick passed on or just out of the bullet mold business?

Hey kid,
Since you have a .38-40 mold can you look at that template I posted and take some measurements for me?  The .45s too if you have time.

I think Dick Rhody is still kicking he just got out of the business.  I saw not that long ago where someone had either texted or corresponded with him late last year.

~Mako

I have a SLIM 38 that I haven't gotten to use yet.

Accurate Molds modified one of their designs for my 56-50. Haven't gotten to use it yet.  One of the modifications was to maximize the available lube.

Not a Lubed bullet but I had this one made by Tom for my Ruger Old Army's. Did this because a .457 round ball is just barely big enough and occasionally a ball will move in the chamber. It is cut to have a max diameter of .460. This will make a better fit and should seat a little deeper into the chamber. The tapered sides should make it easy to load.

All three of the above are scheduled to be used in May. I'll have time by then to do some casting.

Hello Mako,

First off let me tell you how much I appreciate all of your postings, between Yours and Hoof Hearted's I think I've read
every post about conversion revolvers before I did my Remington Conversion in .44 Colt (which I did against Hoof's advice).
However, I'v been loading with Black MZ so my input really doesn't fit your survey.
I've been loading the LEE 450-200-1R Black Powder Conical with a swaged heel without any lube, they shoot well for me.

Thanks again for all your posted information, AntiqueSledMan.

Sedalia,
Thank you!

How does that stumpy little thing shoot?  I saw that in the catalog and wondered who had ordered that.

I expect it does fine at Cowboy ranges, have you ever shot it beyond 20 yards for accuracy?

~Mako

Quote from: Mako on April 10, 2024, 08:51:28 AM
Sedalia,
Thank you!

How does that stumpy little thing shoot?  I saw that in the catalog and wondered who had ordered that.

I expect it does fine at Cowboy ranges, have you ever shot it beyond 20 yards for accuracy?

~Mako

Don't know yet. I'm hoping to get a few hundred cast in time for the SW regional.  I'll be sure to post an review.

Quote from: AntiqueSledMan on April 10, 2024, 06:06:26 AM
Hello Mako,

I did my Remington Conversion in .44 Colt (which I did against Hoof's advice).

However, I'v been loading with Black MZ so my input really doesn't fit your survey.

Hey Sled Man,  (buckboards? those would be truly antique) 

Haa!  I'm curious as to what Gary recommended instead of the .44 Colt.  Was he trying to dissuade you because of the trouble it takes to load and manage .44 Colt Heeled bullets?  They are a lot of work.  I believe he used to sell a kit for the Lee factory crimp die that helped a bit, because the guy that had been selling them (or may have originated the concept) was out of business. Did you get one of those shell holder extensions?

I may do a couple of true conversions some day and I will have to make a bullet just for those.  I actually had a design and believe I posted it on here somewhere over ten years ago.  I wanted a lot more lube than the bullets he was using.  That brings back memories of w44WCF  (John Kort) he was tacking down info and collecting all of the .44 Henry cartridges (flat or otherwise) he could get to suss out the nature of the performance and the lube.  They mostly had dinky little grooves (exposed to the world!) for lube to sit in.  I think his final opinion was the originals were either Bees Wax or Paraffin wax (with something added).  Most of the cartridges we found were devoid of any lube.  We needed to find them in the original boxes, or loaded into a Henry or '66 magazine for a hundred year. 

I had a guy in Brazil trying to locate some produced down there that weren't all dried up.  A partial box of .44 Rmfire was selling for well over $1,000 ten years ago.  Individual rounds as I wrote were always devoid of any lube.  I remember John had bought a fuil box of American made ammo and it cost him just short of $2,000.  He was extremely disappointed because he thinks it may have been stored in a glove compartment.  All of the lube had gone away.  I asked him if it had pooled t the box bottom and he told me it was all over the interior and he couldn't decide if it was a wax coating on the inside of the cardboard or residue from the bullet lube.  I encouraged him to sell them individually on line to collectors to recoup his "investment".

Below are some original .44 Colt cartridges, note they are heeled bullets but most don't even have lubrication grooves.  There is also a .44 Colt Style I had doodled with, trying to get more lube and lube protected from loss.  I was going to machine some bullets and see how the lube on the rebated heel worked (if at all).

~Mako

Mako,

Hoof recomended going with the .45 Colt,
but at the time I thought I wanted to keep it a six shooter.
It's just a Howell Cylinder installed on a 5-1/2" Pietta 1858.
Loading isn't so bad, I do know peopel are afraid of the heeled bullets.
I built my own crimping die while I was still working.
I also had plans on making a cylinder for my Pietta 1851 fantasy 44 cal,
but after retirement I no longer have access to the equipment.
Attached is a photo of my loaded cartridge.

AntiqueSledMan.

Yep, you're using a lee factory crimper.  How is it modified?

Lee doesn't make the collet crimper in .44 Russian through .44 Mag., you have to modify a .44-40 because Lee considers that a rifle cartridge.  Which do you have, a shortened die or a shell holder extension?

Do you normally lube that groove and if you do, how do you do it?   I saw something where Gary or someone who had a conversion (might have been Long Johns Wolf) was using a lubrisizer upside down with the bullet already seated and crimped in the case. and I can't remember if he had a modified sizing die or not to hold it.

I want to modify the Lee .44 collet itself to have the radius instead of the "flat crimp" I want to have the equivalent of a "roll crimp".  When it's crimped it will look more like a conventional pistol die roll crimp and be fully engaged in the crimp groove. I have an extra .44 crimp die I bought to modify, I use the other one for my .44 WCF so I won't collapse the neck.  But I don't get those HARD crimps I like.  They help build pressure and actually keep you chambers clear (little blow back around the shell).  If it works for one it will work for both.  The radius modification that is, the die lengths will be different

One last thing, which bullet and mold is that?

Thank you for sharing.  I knew you were going to tell me he tried to get you to go with .45 COLT.  I'm like you I prefer to keep it closer to the original.  The straight cylinder and 5 rounds look great to him, and he should be proud of his work, but I would want it closer to an original conversion.

~Mako

Mako,

I used a Lee 44-40 Factory Crimp Die, removed the collet,
shortened the die body by 1/4", and built a new collet for the 44 Colt Original.
The bullet is a LEE 450-200-1R, with a heel swaged on the base.
I believe Howell has quit offering the .44 Colt Cylinder, sales must have been very low,
they did question if I really wanted the .44 Colt so I sent them a picture of the headstamp.
It was plug and play, absolutly no modifications were neccesary.
Since all of this I have done two Pietta 1851 .44 caliber conversions.
One with the Howell Cylinder, and one with the Kirst Gated Cylinder.
Both are done in .45 Colt, and are only 5 shot.
Timing was a real issue, I got the Howell to operate by switching parts around.
But with the Kirst, I sent it off to 45 Dragoon and he did his magic to it.
Mike installed a coil spring & plunger for the hand, a wrapped coil spring for the trigger and bolt.
I had already installed the Wolf's reduced preasure main spring before sending it off.
Attached are pictures of my LEE Factory Crimp Die & Collet which I made out of O2 Drill Rod and heat traeted.
To make the Rolled Crimp look would be a trick, but not impossible.
Also pictures of my heel forming die.

AntiqueSledMan.

Mako,

I missed your question about lube. I had built a Cylinder Loading Press, then I bult a Lubricator to put on it.
My Lubricator consists of an old pneumatic cylinder mounted to a block with an RCBS .451 sizing die inside.
I needed to replace the end port of the cylinder so I could install a screw to the piston to push the lube through
a 1/8" passageway, lined up with the grove of the die. With no ejector punch to seal the lube passage when the
bullet is not present I installed a gate valve in the block to close the passage, a shoulder bolt with a 1/8" hole
drilled through and a T handle. You push the loaded cartridge into the lubing die, turn the gate 1/4 turn, then turn
the gate another 1/4 turn then raise the cartridge out of the die.

A locking collar was installed on the ram to set the depth, so the grease groove of the bullet lines up with the die passage.
The Shell Holder was a modified LEE #9. The LEE Shell Holder has a taper in the primer passage which I fit a threaded stud,
then held it together with an 8-32 Flat Head Bolt. I turned the Shell Holder Base to .490" diameter to fit inside my Cylinder
Press for clearance purposes and to work as a stop.

I did load 50 rounds with Goex 2F, so I figured I needed the lube. I went with ¾ cup Crisco Shortening, ¼ lb of Gulf Wax,
and ¼ lb of Bees Wax. It did push through the sizing die and filled the groove on the bullet. I figured if this wasn't enough
lube, I would reduced the charge and add a lubricated felt wad under the bullet. But with the Black MZ I no longer need the lube.

I did have an issue with the bullets wanting to pull out of my case while removing the lubricated cartridge from the lubricator.
So I ended up running all of my bullets through a LEE .451 push thru sizing die before loading them into the cases.

AntiqueSledMan.

Sled Man,
I am so glad you responded.  I am assuming you do work on old "sleds" now seeing your machine work.

I am including 13 year old design possibilities for a collet modification.  I don't have large diameter slitting saws (and it appears yours are wider than the Lee originals) in the narrow slit they used on the collets so I was going to try and modify their collet. I know it's a pain, if they were expanding collets (features on the O.D.) it would be easier.  The guy I was collaborating with pointed out my .06 Radius wasn't any different than a chamfer the way I wanted them modified (he's right).  The main thing is I wanted the crimping surface reduced to .005 to .010" of bearing surface.

My .44 WCF dies crimp like you show in your picture and don't "roll" the crimp into the groove on my Mav Dutchmans  or won't on almost any other lead bullet crimp groove.  There are a few designs with wide crimp grooves or even John Kort's design where he has the ogive going to a reduced diameter on front of the "crimp groove" so you can use a Lee Factory crimp die seat the bullet a bit deeper and the crimper will make the crimp deeper than the bearing surfaces.  A lot of people miss that feature and a lot roll crimp with standard pistol dies.  He had at least one Winchester with the original chamber dimensions and neck turned cases and sized bullets to Ø.428.  I don't go to that much trouble with my original '73 the chamber will accept a modern shell if i have sized my bullets to Ø.428.  Probably snug, but I get NO blow back around the neck.

So your collet appears to be a lot shorter than the theoretical .205 shorter .44 COLT case (from the .44 WCF).  In practice I have found Starline Brass to vary and I think my last batch was 1.110 in length instead of 1.10".  We were going to push out the original collet, then shorten it .205" and shorten the die body at least .25".  The collets are relatively hard so we might have even had to use a die post grinder with a Ø .25 grinding wheel (not a traditional Tool Post O.D. grinder).  We were going to make two pieces to stabilize the collet while in the lathe chuck or a collet.  An aluminum plug to fit n the bore of the collet and two sleeve halves to fit in the stepped down section on the O.D. of the Lee Collet. It's been a while but I think it was the two segments had an OD of 3/4" to fit in a standard collet.  How much did you shorten your die body?

Any advise you can give me from your efforts would be appreciated.

I like your Lubrication set up, I like that you are using an air cylinder instead of a hand pump a lot.  I have two boxes of cylinders salvaged from other projects, some as large as Ø 4.0 inches.

Is that a cylinder loading stand you are using with your bullet lubing set up?  If it is I applaud you, I love it when someone re-uses something they already have time and effort into.  My loader is below, I have all kinds of adapter for different cylinders (some are kept on the stand) but it really is optimized for Colt's Pattern '51s and '60s.  The riser used to be taller but I shortened it to just handle the Colt's cylinders and the brass plungers have built in hard stops.

You fully explained the reason I want a different style crimp face on the collet.  You reported that you were having trouble with the bullets pulling out in the lubrication die.  Pushing them through a Ø.451 sizer sort of makes the heeled bullet a moot point.  If you only had  a .01" land and enough compression to squeeze the collet to get the crimp to reduce that area bay at lest .01 to .015 inches per side it they would not pull out.  That is my quest, to get a "Hard Crimped" Heeled bullet, not just the hint of a crimp.

~Mako

This is how they used to crimp Heeled bullets. 

Look at the two pictures below, notice the deep hard crimps.  They figured out a way to give what appears to be a roll crimp on those cartridges.  I know it wasn't a crimper like we have on our conventional reloading dies now because the bullet would be swaged down before the case got to the crimping area.  They may have even rolled the cartridges around their central axis and crimped them, I don't know... That .44 Rimfire second from the right has a crimp that resembles what I am advocating you can do with a modified Lee die,  you can see that short land and the vestige of a crimping tool. Now look at the crimp far left on the second picture, that is obviously a collet crimp, you can see the area between the segments where it didn't crimp.

The other photo was from someone I believe who was on this forum.  If that is your photo speak up, I for one appreciate it. Note how all of these bullets in both pictures have obvious crimps.  I don't get this good of a crimp even with my unmodified Lee .44-40 Factory Crimp Die (on my .44 WCF cases), the bearing area of the crimp is too long on the factory die and doesn't force the case down into the crimp groove.

I included the .44 Rimfires because they are heeled bullets too and had to be crimped in a manner different than our traditional crimping dies.

Thanks to everyone participating and even those just following.  This is what this entire website has needed for a while, Discussion! Sharing Ideas, sharing photos. Go look at all of the individual forums and see how long it has been between topics and posts.  little discussion, very little new.  Even if we have discussed these in the past we have new members and new readers, plus have we REALLY figured it all out?  That is what I asked in one of my original posts upon coming back to the forum after an absence of years.

~Mako

Greetings my dear netizens

Re crimping

Here is what i have found to date regarding loading and crimping tools

Earliest patent, involving a die crimp ( apparently not heel based ) from 1869
https://patents.google.com/patent/US97904A/en?q=(Cartridge+bullet+crimp)&num=100&oq=Cartridge+bullet+crimp&sort=old

Another later, ca 1873  using a revolving disk to establish the crimp

https://patents.google.com/patent/US143981A/en?q=(Cartridge+bullet+crimp)&num=100&oq=Cartridge+bullet+crimp&sort=old

And there are various hand tools that use a pliers-like device to establish the crimp....

I could not find much on factory type machines yet other than the two above.

Yhs
Prof mumbles

Mako,

I do work on, collect and restore Antique Snowmobiles, 1968 and older.
It's been my obstion ever since they were new.
My son & I actually take them on trail rides and race with them,
along with our many friend in the Antique Snowmobile Club of America.

And yes, that was the Cylinder Press which I had built during after hours at work.
Almost all of the material came from the scrap barrel at work,
I think the ram was the only purchased part, a 1/2" ground rod.

The problem I see with modifying an allready built collet is holding it while machining,
they want to spread on you because of the slits but this can be overcome.
The issue of building a new one like I did, they need to be heat treated so they spring back after crimping.
I used a piece of 17mm O2 Drill Rod for the collet. I did all the machining before cutting the slits.
Then before heat treating it, I put it on a mandrel and wrapped it with mechanics wire tied to hold it against the mandrel.
It was a real pain, but I didn't want it to warp. I tried one without heat treating and after a few rounds it didn't spring back.

Looking at the 3 cartridges in the picture, one can see the ".44 Colt & Remington" was crimped in a collet.
Maybe the rest of the cartridges were actually rolled to creat the rolled crimp.
It would be possible to do so with a tubing cutter, but I think this would get old very quickly.

As far as re-using stuff already made for something else, it just seamed the way to go.
Why go through the troubles of building the same piece for a different project when it's right there?
I also used the cylinder press as an extraction tool for a little swaging die I built.
Somebody had posted a picture of the Taurus Hollow Base (unavailable now), so I attempted to copy them.
I made a swaging die to swage a .375 round ball into the 36 caliber hollow based conical.
I needed a way to get the final product out of the die, as I didn't like pounding on it with a hammer.
In the picture below the Taurus Hollow Base on the left, with my copy on the right.
I will say the one downside of retirement is the loss of the equipment we were allowed to use.

AntiqueSledMan.

My personal favorite bullet for my 45s is called "The Barnstormer."  Developed by Adirondack Jack some Lustrum ago.  The bullet was intended to put those CAS shooters who preferred the .45, on the same competitive level as those who preferred to play with the .38.

I apologize, as I am On The Road and can't submit an appropriate photograph and have never been able to post on this forum anyway, but the bullet resembles a really large Wad Cutter with a radically DEEP hollow base.  Drops from a mold at about 130Gr.  I believe AJ had two or maybe three sets of blocks made.  There was a fellow on the SASS Wire who picked up casting the bullet commercially when "others" gave up marketing it.  I don't know what happened to the other two sets of blocks.  The bullet is notoriously difficult to cast.  I will try and get a photo when I get home Saturday and have one of our Mods post it for me.

31-115D is the 32-20 bullet that I designed and the late John Kort added to accurate catalog. I really need to get Tom to list it as the improved 32-20 black powder bullet.

The original one that John designed has sold a bunch because it was listed for such but this redesign we did works a bit better.

I moved the lube groove forward increasing the base driving band thickness giving the bullet better balance and the overall length and crimp groove is optimal for best feeding from the Uberti toggle length rifles. These slight changes worked perfect because in my experience the 31-115D bullet outshoots the 31-110C version that John originally had Tom make us.

Quote from: AntiqueSledMan on April 12, 2024, 05:40:12 AM
Mako,
...The problem I see with modifying an allready built collet is holding it while machining,
they want to spread on you because of the slits but this can be overcome.
AntiqueSledMan.

Sledman,
Yep, I already had a plan to stabilize the collet while machining, my buddy and i who collaborate on machining projects had already come up with a plan to hold the collet by forcing a core of aluminum in to the center of the collet and then machining a hollow aluminum cylinder (to fit around the outside of the collet body) and splitting it in half to go around Lee collet.  Of course the secret is that you can't spring the collet open more than about a half a thousandth and you can't run your core plug up into to the area where the machining will take place.  To further complicate matters the bore of the Lee collet is not perfectly cylindrical on the one we took apart.  My friend insisted we would have to true the bore up a bit first. probably run a reamer in it and then lap it.  The problem there is I would have to buy another reamer and lap (not too expensive but it keeps adding up) , nether one of us had one close enough in size (I can't remember what it even was now). I had suggested the I.D. tool post grinder instead of single pointing it on the lathe since you can limit the deflection of the pieces we would be grinding because there is so little pressure. Also the hardness of the collet wouldn't be a factor, it probably would be while reaming and I'm not even sure we could do that and clamp the collet firmly even with the split halves.  It just kept getting more complicated.  I can see why you chose to make a collet.

I have another problem though, I "started" this project at least 15 years ago.  My buddy has moved and is extremely old now and I have moved 3 times since then and am just now getting my shop in order.  I still don't where half of the things are, I had a shipping container full of just my shop and office items not counting furniture.  I'm not even sure where that collet is, I might just buy another.

I really appreciate your picture and creativity.  I'm sure if I showed the pictures to John (my buddy) he might think it was my set up with the RCBS and everything.

I have one last question...what were you doing with that .22LR cartridge in the picture with the tube cutter?

I also believe the Per'fesser had the right of it above about the rotary crimpers.  Factory products often use things like that because they are faster and many times more uniform than what we do on our own loading benches.  I toured a Federal plant once and they were putting cannelures on .38 Spl cases intended for wadcutters, they were FAST and didn't cause any imperfections on the surface.  However that one photo definitely has the evidence of a slip collet being used to crimp it.

~Mako

Quote from: Cliff Fendley on April 12, 2024, 08:55:33 AM
31-115D is the 32-20 bullet that I designed and the late John Kort added to accurate catalog. I really need to get Tom to list it as the improved 32-20 black powder bullet.

Cliff,
Yes you need to get it listed that way, so people will find it in all of the clutter.

As for John, I looked the other day and I think there is only one attributed to him.  You might want to still give him attribution even though it is a improved version.  If the folks who did the improvement want to be listed you could say "Improved by XXXX".  There are also variations on his .44 bullet on there that need to give attribution.  A lot of people would gravitate towards those designs if they knew those were his.  John contributed a lot and never asked for very little, he deserves the recognition..

I can't believe how many total designs are in the catalog now, it's insane, how would anyone choose?

Thank you for sharing this.  One of the things I want to do is create a list for us we can put in the Dark Arts section that will list the successful bullets suitable for BP.  John never had the success he wanted with the Mav Dutchman which I believe actually started his design work looking for an accurate long range .44 WCF bullet.  I'm not sure we can get a Mav Dutchman analog unless we get Lee or someone else to do it again.

And I agree with you on the bearing surface at the base.  If you have access to older .38 Grease wagon bullets you will see they had a shorter bearing which "grew" longer at some point of time.  Further more the Mold we could buy was not exactly the same as the original design, however I like the smaller diameter nose on the bullets I was getting 10 years ago and 2 years ago.  They seem to feed well, maybe it's not an issue I have never run tests with the different variations side by side.

Thank you again for adding this.

~Mako

Quote from: Mako on April 12, 2024, 09:23:51 AM
Cliff,
Yes you need to get it listed that way, so people will find it in all of the clutter.

As for John, I looked the other day and I think there is only one attributed to him.  You might want to still give him attribution even though it is a improved version.  If the folks who did the improvement want to be listed you could say "Improved by XXXX".  There are also variations on his .44 bullet on there that need to give attribution.  A lot of people would gravitate towards those designs if they knew those were his.  John contributed a lot and never asked for very little, he deserves the recognition..

I can't believe how many total designs are in the catalog now, it's insane, how would anyone choose?

Thank you for sharing this.  One of the things I want to do is create a list for us we can put in the Dark Arts section that will list the successful bullets suitable for BP.  John never had the success he wanted with the Mav Dutchman which I believe actually started his design work looking for an accurate long range .44 WCF bullet.  I'm not sure we can get a Mav Dutchman analog unless we get Lee or someone else to do it again.

And I agree with you on the bearing surface at the base.  If you have access to older .38 Grease wagon bullets you will see they had a shorter bearing which "grew" longer at some point of time.  Further more the Mold we could buy was not exactly the same as the original design, however I like the smaller diameter nose on the bullets I was getting 10 years ago and 2 years ago.  They seem to feed well, maybe it's not an issue I have never run tests with the different variations side by side.

Thank you again for adding this.

~Mako

Mako, you could say this bullet is the 32-20 version for Johns 43-215C in relation to the 44-40. I'll probably contact Tom and see if he will add a description to it so people realize what it is. People are buying the original version John first put in the catalog without realizing we did an updated version.

Quote from: Cliff Fendley on April 12, 2024, 08:27:19 PM
Mako, you could say this bullet is the 32-20 version for Johns 43-215C in relation to the 44-40. I'll probably contact Tom and see if he will add a description to it so people realize what it is. People are buying the original version John first put in the catalog without realizing we did an updated version.

Cliff,
That is good, like I wrote before, I hope to get something together we can compile and post adding it to the Dark Arts archive along with commentary.  A data base where we can send people and help them find the best bullets for what they are trying to do.  I know John wasn't averse to change, he realized he didn't have all of the answers and was always learning. So he would welcome improvements to anything he started.

There are so many molds in Tom's catalog now it is confusing and I don't understand why there are even some showing "0" sold.  Most people would look at the catalog and go for the 31-110C since there have been 29 sold not realizing the improvement with the 31-115D.  Your 31-115D is only a few thousandths from the max depth he would cut so there would be no need to make an analog of the .32 Big Lube mold, and you have a lube surface of .16 which is a good ratio to the bullet diameter.  I would assume it doesn't lead badly with the right lube.

Wasn't the Big Lube .32 caliber mold a lightweight bullets, somewhere around 80 grains?  I never paid attention to it, does anyone have the dimensions on it?  I think the only people who would be interested in it would be someone shooting the .32 Mag, the ogive on yours and Johns are better for feeding in a rifle like the Win '92, Marlin or Henry.  A '73 doesn't care what you have for feeding, but a loading ramp works better with the longer bullets.  The Snake Bite works better in my Daughter's Marlin and the longer ogive actually helps with guns intended for .357 mag.

I guess there are so many molds in his catalog because there a lot of people just want their "own" design which leads to the proliferation of catalog numbers.  Plus, Tom makes it easy to come up with a new design since they are actually all "one offs" anyway because the cavity profiles are CNC machined and he doesn't make "cherries" to cut the molds.  I for one will probably not have .44 design unless Tom will actually make a deeper groove that .03" for us.  There isn't any need, any variation would be to close to a couple that are already in the catalog to justify a different design.  The .38 is a different matter, there was nothing like it with a deep groove which we can get at .03", they all give up some of that depth in their designs.  I have recovered Snake Bite bullets and unlike the Mav Dutchman they seem to use most of the lube and I find them to be accurate out to longer ranges.

~Mako

Mako,

The picture of the tubing cutter isn't mine,
I just added it to show another method of putting s rolled crimp onto a case.

AntiqueSledMan.

Quote from: Mako on April 13, 2024, 12:42:48 AM
Cliff,
That is good, like I wrote before, I hope to get something together we can compile and post adding it to the Dark Arts archive along with commentary.  A data base where we can send people and help them find the best bullets for what they are trying to do.  I know John wasn't averse to change, he realized he didn't have all of the answers and was always learning. So he would welcome improvements to anything he started.

There are so many molds in Tom's catalog now it is confusing and I don't understand why there are even some showing "0" sold.  Most people would look at the catalog and go for the 31-110C since there have been 29 sold not realizing the improvement with the 31-115D.  Your 31-115D is only a few thousandths from the max depth he would cut so there would be no need to make an analog of the .32 Big Lube mold, and you have a lube surface of .16 which is a good ratio to the bullet diameter.  I would assume it doesn't lead badly with the right lube.

Wasn't the Big Lube .32 caliber mold a lightweight bullets, somewhere around 80 grains?  I never paid attention to it, does anyone have the dimensions on it?  I think the only people who would be interested in it would be someone shooting the .32 Mag, the ogive on yours and Johns are better for feeding in a rifle like the Win '92, Marlin or Henry.  A '73 doesn't care what you have for feeding, but a loading ramp works better with the longer bullets.  The Snake Bite works better in my Daughter's Marlin and the longer ogive actually helps with guns intended for .357 mag.

I guess there are so many molds in his catalog because there a lot of people just want their "own" design which leads to the proliferation of catalog numbers.  Plus, Tom makes it easy to come up with a new design since they are actually all "one offs" anyway because the cavity profiles are CNC machined and he doesn't make "cherries" to cut the molds.  I for one will probably not have .44 design unless Tom will actually make a deeper groove that .03" for us.  There isn't any need, any variation would be to close to a couple that are already in the catalog to justify a different design.  The .38 is a different matter, there was nothing like it with a deep groove which we can get at .03", they all give up some of that depth in their designs.  I have recovered Snake Bite bullets and unlike the Mav Dutchman they seem to use most of the lube and I find them to be accurate out to longer ranges.

~Mako

The 31-115D carries plenty of lube. Using Olde E I can shoot a six stage match without cleaning my rifle. That's using SPG or my 50/50 deer tallow and beeswax. When designing it John was the one that laid out the lube groove dimensions.

I use an RCBS mold, 45-225-CAV and lube with SPG.  It happens to carry just about the right amount of lube in both 24-¼" rifles.  The one on the left is after hitting it with a 2-½ lb hammer.