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Special Interests - Groups & Societies => BROW => Topic started by: Roscoe Coles on October 08, 2021, 11:02:25 PM

Title: Picked up a new Betsy
Post by: Roscoe Coles on October 08, 2021, 11:02:25 PM
I did some trading a while back and ended up with an H&R trapdoor officer's model.  It took a while to get here, but I really like it.  It's very comfortable and the sight picture is excellent.  Can't wait to get out and shoot it.  The locking latch on these have a reputation for being problematic, but this one is tight.  It came from a friend who has had it from new. 
Title: Re: Picked up a new Betsy
Post by: ndnchf on October 09, 2021, 05:45:41 AM
That's a beauty - congrats. I seem to recall reading about a mod to correct or improve the latch issue on these. I don't recall the details, but it would be worth looking into. Safety first  :)
Title: Re: Picked up a new Betsy
Post by: wildman1 on October 09, 2021, 06:23:05 AM
Most of the latch problems come from people who don't know how to shoot them. I have two one had to be repaired because the dummy who owned it before me would press down on the latch lever to close it and stripped the set screws.
wM1
Title: Re: Picked up a new Betsy
Post by: Major 2 on October 09, 2021, 06:47:04 AM
I had the Cavalry carbine model, never any issue with the latch....

I had happened on it consigned to an LGS in Franklin, NC. and got it for $300 , I sold years later ( one of , on a list I wished I had not let go )
Title: Re: Picked up a new Betsy
Post by: Niederlander on October 09, 2021, 08:47:50 AM
The latch can be a problem, because instead of sticking with the original design (the thumb piece pressed on to a square shaft), they used a set screw on a round shaft.  Not too hard to fix so it doesn't come apart though.  You may never have a problem with it, largely depending on how much you use it.  If you use it for GAF shooting, it may well need to be fixed.  Neat carbines!
Title: Re: Picked up a new Betsy
Post by: Dave T on October 09, 2021, 10:18:15 AM
I always admired the OM Springfields.  Congrats to the OP on the acquisition.

Dave
Title: Re: Picked up a new Betsy
Post by: Pitspitr on October 11, 2021, 06:05:21 AM
Quote from: wildman1 on October 09, 2021, 06:23:05 AM
Most of the latch problems come from people who don't know how to shoot them. I have two one had to be repaired because the dummy who owned it before me would press down on the latch lever to close it and stripped the set screws.
Not all the problems are operator error.


Quote from: Niederlander on October 09, 2021, 08:47:50 AM
The latch can be a problem, because instead of sticking with the original design (the thumb piece pressed on to a square shaft), they used a set screw on a round shaft.  Not too hard to fix so it doesn't come apart though.  You may never have a problem with it, largely depending on how much you use it. If you use it for GAF shooting, it may well need to be fixed.  Neat carbines!
+1When mine came apart it became an auto-ejector  ::)
Title: Re: Picked up a new Betsy
Post by: Drydock on October 13, 2021, 10:51:50 AM
Another potential problem with these is some of the late ones had the cams machined with the wrong geometry.  But those should have been corrected long ago.  Have always wanted one of the Officers models.  Check the set screw frequently.  If it ever comes loose,  dimple the shaft then locktite the dang screw in.  Then screw a 2nd one on top of it.
Title: Re: Picked up a new Betsy
Post by: Pitspitr on October 13, 2021, 12:08:26 PM
On mine the shaft actually broke away from the thumb piece. When I got the replacement I applied Drydock's fix and have had no more problems with it.

Quote from: Drydock on October 13, 2021, 10:51:50 AMCheck the set screw frequently.  If it ever comes loose,  dimple the shaft then locktite the dang screw in.
Title: Re: Picked up a new Betsy
Post by: Drydock on October 14, 2021, 06:39:05 PM
I blame everyone here:  Walking thru a small gunshop in a St Louis suburb today, and there sits an H&R Officers Model midst the black rifles.  Pristine condition, reasonable price, and a quarterly safety bonus in the account. 

Should make a nice skirmish rifle.
Title: Re: Picked up a new Betsy
Post by: Roscoe Coles on October 14, 2021, 11:52:17 PM
Ha!  We are all enablers when it comes to buying guns.  I am busy planning modifications to mine to make it a bit closer to the original.  Installing a proper/original rear barrel sight, cutting a grove in the hinge so you can see it, finding a beach combination front sight, and fixing a couple of little things.  I am also looking at installing a single set trigger (parts are available).  It might be fun to "de-farb" it by taking off some of the markings.  It's good to have a project. 
Title: Re: Picked up a new Betsy
Post by: Drydock on October 15, 2021, 10:06:11 AM
https://montanavintagearms.com/product/mva-combination-front-sight/
Title: Re: Picked up a new Betsy
Post by: varsity07840 on October 16, 2021, 09:40:33 AM
Standard 70 grain loads with the 405gr bullet off the bench will loosen your fillings. The 500 gr load is simply painful.
Title: Re: Picked up a new Betsy
Post by: Roscoe Coles on October 16, 2021, 10:31:38 AM
I have a 45-55 (405) carbine load that I load for my 1886 carbine that is pleasant to shoot.  I think I will stick with that.  I have a sharps 45-90 if I want more zip. 
Title: Re: Picked up a new Betsy
Post by: Drydock on October 16, 2021, 02:52:26 PM
Yeah, the originals were regulated for the carbine load, I'll stick with that. 
Title: Re: Picked up a new Betsy
Post by: Drydock on October 17, 2021, 02:57:54 PM
Took it out to the farm today: OE and Triple 7 carbine loads.  The 8 groove H&R rifling prefers the 777, though both loads shot into 3" at 100 yards off the bench.  I intend to replace the front sight with the MVA "beach" sight eventually, but will probably keep the rear tang sight, it works better than I thought it would, and stays upright under recoil, good for Skirmish shooting.  I'll need to scribe it for different ranges when I get the chance.  It is an accurate reproduction of the original, and I understand it better having used it.  Not a precision sight, but it's not a precision rifle.

Using this bullet: http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=46-405C

One of these really helps the recoil: https://www.accu-riser.com/leather-butt-pad-bp-2000/

Though it does not appear to have been shot much, it seems someone did secure the locking cam with double set screws.  Hopefully they dimpled the shaft, but I doubt I'll have any problems with it.
Title: Re: Picked up a new Betsy
Post by: Drydock on October 18, 2021, 04:39:54 PM
Having said that, I ran across this: https://stores.leeshavergunsmithing.com/muzzleloaders-and-trapdoor-rifles-economy-mid-range-soule/

I called Mr. Shaver, and he makes them to fit the existing mount on the rifle.  You do need to call if you want this specific pattern.  I have one ordered, be a week to 10 days to ship, will report when it arrives.
Title: Re: Picked up a new Betsy
Post by: Drydock on November 29, 2021, 12:32:47 PM
Received and installed Shaver sight.  Easy installation on the existing base.  Seems a robust, quality unit. Should work well in this application.
Title: Re: Picked up a new Betsy
Post by: wildman1 on November 30, 2021, 07:17:35 AM
I believe the double set screws are standard. Both of ours have them.
wM1
Title: Re: Picked up a new Betsy
Post by: Drydock on November 30, 2021, 10:21:10 AM
Most I've observed had a single.  It was a well known fix even as they were being made.  Might have become standard on late production.
Title: Re: Picked up a new Betsy
Post by: Drydock on April 07, 2022, 12:15:46 PM
Ordered and received an MVA Combination/Beach sight.  Installation was easy thanks to my Wyoming Sight Drifter https://www.wyomingsightdrifter.com/    highly recommended if you mess around with dovetailed or friction fit anything.  I had ordered a .378 sight based on my best guess, it was a little loose, but peening down the dovetail edges produced a nice tight fit.  Probably should have got the .385, but this appears to work fine.  Being a round barrel helps.  It produced an excellent sight picture, far better than the original post and bead. 
Title: Re: Picked up a new Betsy
Post by: Pitspitr on April 07, 2022, 01:14:12 PM
Quote from: Drydock on October 17, 2021, 02:57:54 PM
Took it out to the farm today: OE and Triple 7 carbine loads.  The 8 groove H&R rifling prefers the 777, though both loads shot into 3" at 100 yards off the bench. 
I played with some Blackhorn 209 earlier this winter in my new (to me) muzzleloading abomination (scope sighted and black plastic) I  might have to try making a 55 gr load with that for the H&R
Title: Re: Picked up a new Betsy
Post by: Drydock on April 07, 2022, 05:27:07 PM
Put 21 rounds of 45-70 thru my H&R this afternoon, loaded with 47 grains (By weight) 2f 777.  Getting the sights readjusted.  Nice tight 3 shot* groups at 200 yards, no cleaning until I went home.  That just fills a Starline case to the base of an Accurate 46-405c bullet.  Been running around 3 moa bench rested.  Good stuff in the H&R barrel.

I would prefer real black, but the H&R has made it clear this is what it wants.





*Steel  plate at 200 yards.  Shoot 3 rounds, walk to the plate, paint over, walk back, adjust, shoot 3 more shots, repeat.  Good exercise.

Title: Re: Picked up a new Betsy
Post by: Drydock on April 18, 2022, 05:37:09 AM
Ran the OM at the Indiana Muster this weekend.  Whole match with the above loads, no cleaning, no loss of accuracy or any other problems.  Great fun.
Title: Re: Picked up a new Betsy
Post by: Drydock on April 19, 2023, 07:12:19 PM
Ran the OM HARD at the Atlantic Muster.  Every shot hit steel.  This is a great set up for skirmishing.
Title: Re: Picked up a new Betsy
Post by: Blackpowder Burn on July 23, 2023, 11:29:51 AM
Lee is a great guy.  Really friendly and makes great products and is an excellent gunsmith for all the vintage rifles.  I have 4 of his sights - 3 economy soule and 1 super grade soule.  Love them.........