Since Onery Orr brought this subject up on the Dead Equine thread, I thought I'd take a kick at a new can of worms. ;D
With a protractor &/or a Mark One Eyeball someone should be able to identify an obviously short stroked rifle. But my Mark One Eyeball can't begin to tell how fast a bullet is going.
How would a minimum velocity be enforced? ???
Please do not read any sarcasim or anything else into this comment/question; I'm just curious. :)
Books
Books--Did you just plan to kick this can, or do you need an opener?????????
GW
Mornin', Books. Boys.
The velocity thing. Our club kept the max/min thing. Didn't want the targets beat up 'n we didn't want stuff bouncin' back 'n hurtin' nobody. MD, I think, kept a cheap graph case it was needed.
After while, ya get used to the sounds. Ya had one goin', pssst..........................................tink... Pull 'im aside 'n have a discussion. Push come to shove, clock 'em.
On the other end, if somebody was droppin' the hammer on a rifle 'n there was one loud 'BLANG' 'n the targets damned near got knocked o'er, or did get knocked o'er, we'd talk again.
N'er had to pull the graph out that I know of.
Books,
The only way I can see that it would be enforced is to chrony everyone's loads before every match. But, someone could give a faster load to be chronied than what they will shoot in the match. In other words, it is unenforeable, IMHO.
Slim
Seriously, it would be enforceable with a chronograph and randomly selected cartridges, but to me, the bigger question is, would we want to enforce it? I, for one, would most definitely not! Again, the NCOWS member is responsible for the authenticity of his equipment and gear, ammo included. Nuf' said.
GW
Not a problem at all.
If you have established a minimum velocity for various rounds, you make a chronograph available for everyone to fire their ammo over, to test it and be sure they are in compliance. Most folks will want to be.
If somebody is shooting "mouse fart" loads, the judge just asks them to load the offending firearm from the belt the shooter has on, and the judge shoots it over the chronograph. Don't give them a chance to dig around in their gun cart for some full power loads.
The only problem I see is where to draw the line. I would say establish the velocity of a case full of black powder, as a nominal velocity. And then make your floor a percentage of that. I would start the bidding at 75%. Others may want to change that number up or down. There are variations in different reloading manuals, variations in loading procedures, etc., that can change the actual velocity attained.
Now, of course, my favorite solution to the problem of excessively light loads is even simpler.
Just have everybody shoot Black Powder, just like God intended cowboys should!
But I see where SASS is having problems with people in the Black Powder categories shooting loads that are more grits than powder, and they are argueing that these people don't generate enough smoke!
Maybe we should just stop keeping score altogether? Then the gamers wouldn't be attracted to this at all!
Grizzle Bear
I am somewhere in between Arcey and Slim on this one. Some loads are so light that it is obvious, especially when there is the little "bang", a bullet is seen arching gracefully toward the target, and a "tink" is heard if the bullet hits target, sometimes to bounce back into the posse. At one recent match I even saw one shooter adjusting his rifle sights for the range to target and wind -- yes, he needed to -- we could watch his bullets, even those of us with bad eyes, as they arched toward the target and were blowen to the side by the wind (NO, this was NOT a long range match). I suspect that arrows fly faster than his bullets.
The higher end can be "funny". I used to get flack for my "overly powerful" loads, which were never at more than SAAMI spec loads for that cartridge (generally 44-40), most were actually BP loads. I even got "chewed on" for damaging targets, especially shotgun targets. Basically, in a world of severly downloaded nitro loads, ANY standard SAAMI load, ANY old standard BP load, even some reasonable loads with "loud" powder (any BP, Titegroup, etc.) may be called "hot" by the uninformed, unexperienced.
I have even carried some old standard (meaning NOT the SASS half-case loads so common today) BP loads to shoot after someone accused me of shooting "hot" nitro loads. That usually stopped the fuss. It also kept me from being DQed once at EoT for using "illegal" loads.
Another problem at some clubs is that the targets are so close that target damage is invited from anyone shooting anything like a standard SAAMI load in 44-40, etc. or shooting a choked shotgun. I have even had complaints about 2,5 dram 1,0 oz BP loads damaging targets -- folks have even commented this year about how "hard" we hit the shotgun targets -- with 3/4 oz loads from tight choked, long barreled doubles!!!
I think part of the abhorrance of a minimum velocity limit is the expectation/requirement for overt, checked compliance, as Slim indicates. I never saw that. I did see some clubs that selectively chronoed ammo that was producing bounce-backs a lot. It was announced at each and every shooter's meeting that this would be done.
Lars
Quote from: Grizzle Bear on December 16, 2005, 11:13:04 AM
...
Maybe we should just stop keeping score altogether? Then the gamers wouldn't be attracted to this at all!
Grizzle Bear
Sounds good ta me. ;)
Slim
Another possibility is a knock down type target positioned here and there.
Calibrate with an "acceptable" load and the Mouse pharts won't score.
I've watched CAS on TV and hate the pop-ting-pop-ting-pop-ting sounds.
Mike
Looks like just another by-law that while it could be enforced, we just don't want to. So, by some reasoning, we just ought to get rid of it? Maybe Grizzle Bear's timer idea is the way to go?!
GW
There is another way to do this. That is, put a time limit on the stage, say, 30 - or 40 - or 60 seconds. Any shots after the end buzzer don't count, only the hits and misses withing the time limit. Of course, unfired rounds are counted as misses.
While I have seen stages like this now and then, I have no idea how they might be received if there were lots (all?) of such stages.
Hemlock Mike,
That has been tried repeatedly. It is easy to defeat. Just make sure the load used on that target is heavy enough. All the others can be wimpies. A no-brainer for the serious shooter, given the dictated or planed course of fire.
Lars
QuoteIt is easy to defeat. Just make sure the load used on that target is heavy enough. All the others can be wimpies. A no-brainer for the serious shooter, given the dictated or planed course of fire.
Actually that's pretty easy to deal with too. I've seen this done at a couple of clubs: Shooter draws a card at the starting point to determine his shooting sequence. Have two or three shooting sequences for a given stage and "luck of the draw" decides how every shooter engages them. And before someone yells, "that ain't fair cause everyone ain't shootin the same sequence", I say yes it is because everyone has the same chance at the cards as everyone else. Insert this sort of thing into a couple or three stages and the chances even up even more...except fer the feller tryin ta "load for the knockdowns" :D
Yep that would work Cuts. It would also play havoc with a lot of folks ability to remember shooting sequences -- would be a great P-trap and likely a PIA for spotters. One of the real down sides to normal CAS shooting is the fixed sequences that have to be remembered.
Lars
Hasn't seemed to be a problem at the clubs I've shot at that do this sort of thing. Sweep 5 from the left...or sweep 5 from the right...as long as the knock down isn't the middle target! :o :o :o :)
Well, OK, with simple sweeps, just starting from one side or other. Suppose one could invent other simple paired A or B sequences for this same porpose.
What I actually see at my favorite club is knockdown rifle and revolver targets that don't go down easily with really wimpy loads, as well as some rifle targets at decently long ranges, like a whopping 50 yards, even 75 now and then.
Lars
I'll keep my hat on regarding the min/max velocity discussion but would like to throw an old, ugly hat in to the fire -
With all the reloading done in CAS - just makes sense to keep the cost reasonable - there are some that could maybe pay a little more attention to detail.....squibs. Our local club has a rule - one squib is a warning, the second squib you are done for the day. There is some grumbling that the number should be three squibs not two. My opinion....one squib...ok, something wasn't right on a load but two generally does indicate there is a problem. I've been at shoots where there is no squib rule, and generally, if someone has two, they have more. The thought of backing up bullets in the barrel if the posse/timer isn't paying very careful attention is very real and can be very dangerous. Also appears that the same people have the same problem indicating not enough attention when reloading. So...then what do you do? Most of the time, a friendly conversataion with the individual about their reloading does the trick but not always. Thoughts, anyone?
Chantilly,
From a safety standpoint, I would say the two squibs and you're out is a good rule.
We had one shooter with multiple squibs - about six or so in two stages. He was allowed to continue shooting but only on the condition that he used someone else's loads or commercial loads. He was an accident waiting to happen.
Personally, I would like to see all targets be knockdowns. This would eliminate the wimpy load shooters from keeping some hotter stuff in their cart for the occasional knockdown.
Ornery, I would also like to have all targets be knock-downs. There are two reasons this isn't done:
1. Expense. Makes no difference if you buy commercial or make your own, you're talking over $100 per target. Generally way over! Multiply that by 10 or 15 targets per stage, and then by 8 or so stages.
2. Time. You can pull on a rope or shut down the range and go pick them up by hand,but either way it takes a long time to reset all the targets for the next shooter. Takes a real long time to cycle a dozen shooters through such a stage.
Saw on TV a company makes Pepper Popper targets with a battery powered automatic reset feature. I'd love to have a bunch of those! They're only $1200 each!
All that said, I really do like to shoot at things and then have them fall down! (Assuming I hit it, anyway!)
Grizzle Bear
What would you use as a standard for a knock down ?? NCOWS has been great with diversity in caliber, i from time to time shoot for my main guns a rifle in 32 Long Colt (about the same as 32 S&W) and a pistol of the same caliber both originals guns from the 1890s. i would hate to see the playing of the game interfere with what we are trying to do which is reliving history.... just a thought
In response to Frog69's post, I'm going to give a scenario for my wanting knockdown targets in NCOWS. You're on the streets of Dodge City, 5 hombres come out of the bank with a load of money. They see you with your shiny S.A.S.S. or N.C.O.W.S. badge boldly pinned to your suspenders for all the world to see. They perceive you as a threat. You know you can't afford to do a double tap starting from the left, cause the dude on the right is drawing a bead on you at this moment. You opt for a sweep from Right to Left. You start in on 'em. Blam!, Blam!, Blam!, Blam!, Blam! All targets are DOWN! No one to put a slug in you since you fired your 5 shots.
I'm all for historically honoring the times gone by, but lets have the mindset that back in the day, given the scenarios that we're given, these "fun little shoots" that we do would have been a matter of life and death.
I still believe that if you make the targets knockdowns, the "gamers" will have no choice but to shoot heavier loads.
There are guns and calibers made for plinking and then there are guns and calibers for getting the work done. Let's get to work!!
Keeping with the more common occurrences for the 1800s You could also say....... Its cold things are bleak, you haven't eaten for days its middle of winter you feel as if your being watched suddenly there is a twig snap a vicious badger comes full bore at you .... you pull up your trusty 1892 marlin in 32 long colt and (balm blam)its no longer a threat and at the same time a rabbit darts out giving a chance to do what you are there for (blam blam)you have food to help stay alive one more day in the harsh winter
Now that's Real life or death..... As For velocity Question, This like many other things NCOWS opens up we have to realize that to make NCOWS reflect real life and or history has way to many variables to have to deal with. 1st NCOWS needs to redefine its self and then
Make the rules very specific to eliminate the gray areas, that's if you want it a sport. If you want it to be history then be prepared to leave the door open and let it strictly be for the fun and let its members learn from one an other forget about it being competitive ..... just some more thoughts
Joss, most posses around here have their own unique badges.... :)
Double O"
You got my vote, I think it's a damn good idea!!....., While we're at it lets have a minimum distance for the target set-ups too, say a minimum of 15 yds. for revolver and 30 for rifle, with varying degrees of height and spaces between them......
OCB
I'm all for it OCB. This past year, I shot with the S.A.S.S. group here in Glenwood, IA. It's a lot like shooting an NCOWS match because almost everybody that shoots there also shoots at NTR with us and do a good job of being period in their clothing and accoutrements. Anyway, they had some bonus rifle targets that were set up out there quite a ways. I'm fairly fast with the rifle and it definitely made me slow down and take careful aim. You could tell who was shooting light loads also since the bullets were dropping too much and they couldn't reach the targets hardly.
How about a bonus for knocking a specific target down?
If you hit istwith your light caliber or mouse fart load, you get the normal score. If you knock it ass over tea kettle you get a 25 point bonus.
Of course the gamers will have one hot round; but somebody will always game it no matter what you do.
Books
Combining more difficult to hit targets with bonuses is an excellent way to add some real shooting challanges. These can be small targets, distant targets, moving targets, clean sweeps of knockdowns, etc, etc. Your imagination and available targets are the only real limits.
I am solidly with those that wish to place ALL targets some decent distance away, at least at the distances posted by OCB.
Lars
In the olden days of IPSC, we used to use a ballistic pendellum. It was a steel plate that swung, like a pendullum, with a marking point at the top that indicated the amount of swing. Before or after the match, we draw a random round of your ammo and shoot the pendellum. It has to move a specified amount to be considered legal ammo. No electronics, simple to make, fast to do.
Just for the sake of discussion...
I seem to recall a jaw-fest awhile back wherein one Pard said the minimum and maximum velocities were printed in the Tally Book that every member gets on signing up. Can't locate mine right now but if I recall correctly he was saying that the low end figure was around 850 fps or so and the upper end around 1,000 fps, probably wrong on both, but at any rate, the present By-Laws state the following:
9-2. Smokeless powder loads shall not exceed the maximum muzzle velocities of comparable black powder loads, (e.g.: 1500 fps for single-shot cartridge rifles; 1300 fps for lever action rifles; 1000fps for handguns). Smokeless loads may be chronographed and certified by the Judge before the shooter will be allowed to compete.
9-3. The Territorial Congress, in conjunction with the Authenticity Committee and Executive Committee, shall establish and maintain official NCOWS Rules and Regulations to govern approved firearms, calibers, and load, and clothing and accouterments, and range rules and regulations.
Couldn't find a 'minimum' listed in the By-Laws but perhaps one of the Waddies has a Tally Book close at hand and can verify what is written therein. Needless to say, 1,000 fps is enough to satisfy the desire to 'Bang & Clang' of most all CAS folks, however close-in or far-out the targets are positioned.
It should probably follow that smaller caliber handguns such as Pocket Pistols or Derringers in .22, .32 & .38 S&W and other smaller calibers obviously won't fall into the same fps parameters as a 44-40 or 45LC, this is a given due to the simple nature of the product specifications. This should require a specific placement of the target allowing a degree of competence from the Shooter to hit the target and a bit of a challenge as well, i.e., for smaller calibers 4' away may be too close in some cases and 10' may be too far in others. Although some 'feel' that a short-bbl'd 44-40 or 45LC may fall into the Pocket Pistol category because it fits 'into' their Pocket, it can be considered overkill by others, this has been discussed and many fine example pics presented by our knowledgable cadre of posters.
Target placement for larger calibers should ideally be such to provide a common sense approach to safety, a challenge to the Shooter and be visually appealing to all participants.
44Caliberkid's suggestion of a swing pendulum tester is a very doable solution and should be proposed and started ASAP at all NCOWS Official venues. If a registered Shooters loads don't pass the 'Swing Test' they get moved to the Low Power Shooters Category, there will be no wavering, your cartridges hit and move to the prescribe mark or they don't, one way or the other. Those that feel they have to shoot low power loads for whatever reason should be honest and forthright enough to tell the Match Director what they are using and then only compete in an honest and forthright manner against others that do so, for after all, if it is only a competitive edge they seek by utilizing low power loads then they should be honest and manly enough to shoot only with those that can compete equally against them, right? There is nothing wrong in what they are doing as long as it is safe and sequestered, a group of LPS'ers/Low Powered Shooters can easily be scored as well as any others, simply put all 10 targets in one scenario at 5'-10' and let them Nevada Sweep, Samson Sweep, Missouri Sweep, Texas Sweep, Double Tap, Tripple Tap, L-R, R-L then back again. After 5 boxes of Low Powered reloads are expended, all hits scored and the guns put away, the winner can be announced, it won't take much time, they should be done before 10:00 so the rest of the Posses can shoot at leisure. Who knows, what with Maj. Matt's recent conceptualization of a NCOWS Natl. Champion, we might even end up with a National Champion in a LPS category, wouldn't be much glory but then the prize wouldn't be much either, just a simple small faded Pink Feather to go in the hatband on his Gus Crease Hat.
To fulfill what NCOWS proffers, make the target placement challenging, match them to each scenario, simple L-R sweeps don't provide anything for the historical end of the event, make it right the first time and they'll come back the next!
Best regards and good shooting, whatever it is you shoot with or at!
'Ol Gabe
So in reality we are not talking about velocity. We are truly talking about Knock down Power or shock displacement???
Good observation Frog.
In a 'perfect' world of NCOWS/CAS shooting I should think that would be a given. However, we don't live or participate in a perfect NCOWS/CAS world, so if the Low Power Load, read low velocity, can't get to the target and can't knock it down or clang it with appropriate force, then the shooter of that load should be encouraged and allowed to only participate, as mentioned above, with other shooters that feel, for whatever reason, they must load light.
Now, of course various and sundry scenarios will require a Pocket Pistol as part of the 'story', hoepfully it wil be written with some historical propensity to give the Shooter a reason to shoot it, otherwise it is simply an opportunity to bring everything you have to shoot at everything there is, and that is a generalization of the reality of many events. There is nothing wrong in that idea as it gives many Shooters a chance to use all of what they own in a fun and enjoyable environment, but if it is to be an NCOWS event of an historical bent then the scenarios should be writtten as-such and Pocket Pistols would have a limited storyline. However, if the scenarios are written for the Ladies, they might have a higher recognition factor as more Ladies probably used them in defense or for any number of reasons more than the higher caliber armaments, so research should be done prior to writing a historical stage and then with the Gender in mind. Yes, Ladies shoot all the stages presently, and no it doesn't mean they have to shoot only 'Ladies' scenarios. If it is only a 'Fun Shoot' then by all means use everything from Pocket Pistols to Big Bores, but limit the usage of Low Power Loads as the velocity and potential knock-down or sound recognition factor is almost nil.
Let us take a Buff Shoot for example, if Shooter A uses a .32 RB, he will only get the faintest of dings on a Buff target at 100 yards, it will be almost indistinguishable at 150 and unheard farther out except to his own aural perception, i.e. he thinks he hit them but nobody else heard it, he stands by his aural hits and claims 20 out of 25. None are knocked over. Shooter B uses a 45-90 and dumps 20 out of 25, all are visual dumps and the clangs are heard by all. OK, who is scored with 20 out of 25, A or B?
Granted the example is skewed but it offers a different although quite similar perception as those that use .32 or .38 Low Power Loads on the regular stages, it may hit and ding but it don't go down.
Now I'm all for using Low Power Loads or .22s or .32s or .38s for practice, they are inexpensive and give the Shooter a strong and positive feeling of success and self improvement when many hits are scored, but for realistic NCOWS participation regulation loads and calibers need to be used and enforced.
Best regards and good loading!
'Ol Gabe
Howdy 'Ol Gabe,
Your comment about ladies and pocket pistols brings to mind the "Glittering Ornament" side match at the Nationals at Ackley this year. Put on by the KVC, it required the lady to have a revolver or derringer that would fit in a reticule or muff. The target consisted of Heartless Bastard and his hussy. Since he was heartless, shots in his heart were misses. In the family jewels got extra points! ;D ;D ;D Just ask Kayleen if she had fun. Books and Trap put it all together and can provide more details.
Thanks for bringing back happy memories!
Greetings all,
Back in the 1997 May/June issue of The Shootist then Judge Vaugn Trueman published the minimum velocities for for that years NCOWS National Shoot. For information purposes I'll post that article here for reference.
Minimum Velocities Set
"Judge Vaughn Trueman has established a list of minimum smokeless powder velocities for this year's Showdown on the Prairie, in an attempt to address some of the problems associated with the dangers of so-called "squib" loads.While it's still a good idea to use a smokeless powder that will fill up the case to at least 50% of capacity, establishing minimum velocities will allay some of the concerns. Vaughn went through as many loading manuals as he could and compiled a list of "average" minimum velocities for each caliber.
Not every load will be tested, but if there is any question, particularly if the shooter in question is in the top three shooters for any given stage, the load in question may be chronographed, and if it falls below the minimum established, the shooter will be disqualified. Minimum velocities are listed for various bullet weights by caliber:"
32 S&W
77 gr.478 fps
84 gr 468 fps
.32 S&W Long
77 gr. 513 fps
95 gr. 518 fps
.32-20 WCF
115 gr. 550 fps
.38 S&W
92 gr. 718 fps
121 gr. 560 fps
133 gr. 568 fps
141 gr. 510 fps
.38 Special
92 gr. 675 fps
121 gr. 647 fps
148 gr. 512 fps
158 gr. 564 fps
165 gr. 497 fps
.38-40 W
180 gr. 740 fps
.44 S&W Russian
215 gr. 525 fps
246 gr. 505 fps
.44 S&W Special
205 gr. 550 fps
215 gr. 534 fps
245 gr. 609 fps
250 gr. 584 fps
.44-40 WCF
205 gr. 695 fps
.45 Schofield
185 gr. 435 fps
250 gr. 425 fps
.45 Colt
185 gr. 435 fps
250 gr. 505 fps
255 gr. 485 fps
435 fps 505 fps
These may need to be updated from 1997. I do like the 600 fps minimum.
Pit Mule
Thanks Tracy... sounds like a good idea...
Yes indeed I did have fun with the Glittering Ornament side match, Dr. Bob. I like the off the wall sort of shooting stuff. I enjoy shooting the pocket pistol in side matches as such.
I set shoots up that way also.
Expect the unexpecteed.
Kayleen
Here's some thoughts from Shoot'n Newton to keep in mind when talking about minimum velocities-
Velocity by bullet weight without consideration of the bullet type is an incomplete picture. A different design bullet in the same weight will react differently with different loads. Shooters need to realize that when they work up a load according to the book, they need to test it for consistency and accuracy. Otherwise, it could end up being an unreliable load. I wouldn't be caught dead shooting anything much under 800 fps simply for consistency and accuracy. If NCOWS wants a minimum velocity, it should be based on safety sake and not because of competition. In my opinion, the 600 fps is too low.
The clang factor really has more to do with the size of the bullet than the velocity - a 220 gr 45 bullet will have a louder clang than a 92 gr 38 at the same velocity.
If NCOWS is wanting to categorize shooters differently, perhaps sub-categorizing small bore vs large bore within each existing category could be considered.
Now, I don't have a dog in this fight. All of my stuff falls within mimimum safety standards recommended by the powder company. I know that they go a little heavy so you will use more of their powder....That's right, even those big .45 LC Scout was using at the GAF Muster had 4.5 Grains of Clays on a 200 Grain Bullet. My .38 Special loads are 3.0 grains of Clays on a .125 grain or .158 grain round. So, all of my stuff has enough zip on it to reach at least 600 FPS.....Yes Trap, they really do... ;)
I have also gotten into the habit of loading a little heavy. Another shooter loaded me up some rounds for a shooting school I went to and there was about 10 squibs in the mix. This was 1.5 years ago. Very distracting....
I see the issue in enforcement. As Books originally pointed out, this is not a short stroke where a semi-skilled eye could see it. Each club or event would have to buy a chronograph. Not sure how much that would run. They would also have to take the time to test everybodies loads. Not real fair to test only "suspects." I would think that you would want to do it before the main match as well. This will give someone time to "correct" themselves after an entry fee has been accepted. So, I say if you're going to to it, everybody should have to do it, not just winners or suspects....
Now as to minimum target distance, the only reason why I would say I am against that, is that it takes match design away from the discretion of the Match Director. For instance, at the GAF Shoot, the funnest stage was the one with even the rifle targets less than 5 yards away and you had 25 seconds to complete the course of fire or you were "killed." Everybody loved it and it definately was not a "SASS" stage.
I reckon the distance between targets is something that can be governed by the range itself...I got no issue with the targets not being close and bunched up. Anybody who was at either of the GAF Musters I ran knows that.
Chronographs are prety cheap these days, they can be had for under a C note. And I'm always willing to make the loan of mine at any match I attend.
Regarding checking ammo: I see no problem in checking only those whos loads appear suspect! Fair or not, it gets to the meat of the matter..period. And if someone is asked to provide a shell or two they shouldn't have any problem with being asked! I certainly wouldn't! And if my loads didn't make the grade I would happily withdraw from competition and ask if I could help out with the match in some other way. And to be very frank, anyone who would "pitch a hissy" because everyone wasn't "clocked" is someone I'd rather not be shooting with anyway!
Simplest way to deal with it is tell shooters right up front that they may be asked for an ammo sample at any given time during the match! That way they know and can make their own descision as to whether or not they want to participate beforehand. But it is simply not nessessary to take a shell from every competitor and check it. Indeed it would be too easy to circumvent the whole testing proceedure that way, by having a cache of "test ammo"!
regardless, this is all jist supposition right now! ;D
Not quite, Cuts.
If you really wanna know, ya pull 'em off the table after they've loaded. When they think they're ready to shoot the stage.
Have 'em empty their rifle, take 'em to the graph and have 'em put all ten from both pistols across the screens.
..
Quote from: Major Matt Lewis on December 27, 2005, 09:02:22 AM
Not real fair to test only "suspects."
Life isn't fair, a fair is where old men go to see hogs judged.
Seriously though, testing the 'non-suspects' would make as much sense as strip searching 90 year old grannies at the airport ::)
I tend to agree with Arcey in his last statement. The way to get a true read on things is to pull somebody of the loading table.
George,
No, life is not fair, but isn't the whole point of the Short Stroke ban and the consideration of a minimum powder requirement an attempt by NCOWS to make NCOWS more just? If NCOWS is to be just, than all should be chronographed before the main match. That will allow folks to correct any inconsistancies that they may have.
Collect entry fees, give everybody a match DQ, then the host club supplies the beer and everybody sits around the fire, gets drunk and talks about how good they would have shot! ;D
Major Matt, actually autheticity is the reason for the ban on short stroke kits.
Quick Fire,
You got it right pard!!!
OO,
I'm with you if it is good beer. ::) ::)
Quote from: Ornery Orr on December 27, 2005, 08:39:25 PM
Collect entry fees, give everybody a match DQ, then the host club supplies the beer and everybody sits around the fire, gets drunk and talks about how good they would have shot! ;D
Let me work on your guns & we can do that at every shoot ;D
"just" and "fair" can be two different things.
"So there I was, driving down interstate 80, along with a whole bunch of people who had chosen to drive that stretch of road that day, and I'm thinkin' traffic is a little slow. So I slide over into the passing lane and kick it up to 95! Things are cool, I'm making good time gettin over to Newbrasky and no one is being bothered by it! Heck I wasn't weaving' in & out of traffic or nuthin, ya know, not driving crazy, jist a lil faster than most. When all of a sudden I see these danged blue & red lights flashing in the rear view!!! DANG! State trooper nailed me fer speedin! Well I wuzn't the onliest one speedin out there that day, Yer Honor. So I don' think I deserved ta get nailed! That doggon trooper shoulda been radaring every single vehicle on that highway and give a ticket ta everyone that wuz speedin! Otherwise it AIN'T FAIR!!!!! >:(
Hizzhonor replies, "Young man, you were speeding! And you can't deny it! You got caught! Yes there were probably others out there speeding, but YOU got caught! The law says you cannot drive that fast on our interstates. It does not, however, say that the Trooper is required to catch every single person who makes the descision that you did, to drive too fast. To attempt to do so would be an impossible burden on our system. So we just have to do the best we can. When you got caught and were setting there alongside the highway you became an example to other drivers of what MIGHT happen to them if they choose to ignore the speed laws, and thereby had an influence on how they chose to drive. And I will add that you KNEW that getting caught was a possibilty right up front! So "fair" doesn't enter into it! Be that as it may, if I dismiss the charges because you don't think it's "fair" then it would set another example...one that would fill this court with people claiming, 'it ain't fair'! And we would be circumvernting the rule of law in order to make you feel like you were treated "fair". I find you guilty and sentence you to pay the maximum fine allowed by law! That may not be fair, but it IS just!" Baliff! Next case.........." ;D
John,
I agree with the spirit of what is being asked to be done. I really do. I just don't like the idea of singling out people. Doing minimum velocity for safety is fine with all, but enforcement must be equal. Don't we want to be sure that EVERYBODY is safe?
I figure if you catch it before hand, than it's not an issue because that person has time to run to the gun store to buy ammo if the test is done on side match day. I figure that will be a lot better than doing it in a match and then sending someone home...
I realize I am in the minority at least on this board, but Match Directors and the NCOWS Congress should not forget that the shooters who attend their events are customers. There is a way to enforce a minimum velocity without alienating your customer base. Note that I did not say that NCOWS should not do this, just be smart in the way they do it.
I also want to point out, two things.
1. This is an awful lot of fuss over a relatively small amount of shooters. I have only seen one at an NCOWS match that would have warrented testing.
2. I hope that this does not turn into something like the short stroke, where there is room for selective enforcement. Either everybody should be subject to it or nobody. The same with the Short Stroke and all rules, unless they are catagory specific ;)
IM taking just a part out of an other post that I have done and slid it over here to make a point about NCOWS as fallow....
The charter of NCOWS started with the Very specific but, broad idea as shown in our By laws and Articles of Incorporation
PREAMBLE By Laws
Resolved, that the National Congress of Old West Shootists is a not-for-profit living history and shooting organization formed of individuals and affiliated member units to promote interest in the period of American History known as the "Old West," specifically the period from 1865 to 1899.
National Congress of Old West Shootists
Articles of Incorporation
Section 4.02. The purposes for which this corporation is formed are purely social and recreational to benefit the general welfare of its members and the general public, and not for financial gain,There are a few glaring points that do jump out at me, maybe not so obvious to others but, still there.
Note The By laws state "not-for-profit living history and shooting organization " It does not say "not-for-profit living history shooting organization " That Addition of the word AND could easily and legally be argued that the founders intended for these two items to be separate and maybe that's not a bad idea.
Note the Articles of Incorporation state "The purposes for which this corporation is formed are purely social and recreational to benefit the general welfare of its members and the general public" This does not include the words: sport, competition, scoring, fairness,
Exclusive shooting or exclusive history. This could be argued that the founders had the intent for this organization to be just for the fun of doing something with like individuals and noncompetitive
As always safety is first and setting things up at a range safely is a #1 duty to all posies but, it sure would be nice to put the fun as a goal to be strive for at every match.
Just some thoughts For a great club ... the one the only NCOWS
Quote from: Major Matt Lewis on December 28, 2005, 08:55:13 AM
John,
I agree with the spirit of what is being asked to be done. I really do. I just don't like the idea of singling out people. Doing minimum velocity for safety is fine with all, but enforcement must be equal. Don't we want to be sure that EVERYBODY is safe?
I figure if you catch it before hand, than it's not an issue because that person has time to run to the gun store to buy ammo if the test is done on side match day. I figure that will be a lot better than doing it in a match and then sending someone home...
I realize I am in the minority at least on this board, but Match Directors and the NCOWS Congress should not forget that the shooters who attend their events are customers. There is a way to enforce a minimum velocity without alienating your customer base. Note that I did not say that NCOWS should not do this, just be smart in the way they do it.
I also want to point out, two things.
1. This is an awful lot of fuss over a relatively small amount of shooters. I have only seen one at an NCOWS match that would have warrented testing.
2. I hope that this does not turn into something like the short stroke, where there is room for selective enforcement. Either everybody should be subject to it or nobody. The same with the Short Stroke and all rules, unless they are catagory specific ;)
<sigh>
And there in lay my points. I would LOVE it if people didn't have to be singled out! But in the real world we have to do it all the time. Don't we? And as NCOWS expands it brings in more & more attitudes and beliefs from that world. And just like in the example above, breaking the rules does occure, and sometimes multiple people do it. So we enforce them as best we can. <another sigh> Whether or not the minimum velocity suggestion is related to safety, or a desire to maintain relalistic & historically accurate loads, the biggest arguments brought out to fight the idea is that it would take too long and be too expensive to test everyones ammo...along with the "cache of test ammo" scenerio.
Interestingly enough, you mention only having seen the phenomenom of extra light loads once. This kind of makes my point too! In that instance, if a rule were in place at the time, that shooter could be approched at the loading table and asked to provide one of his shells for testing...minimum fuss and minimum time taken away from the game. Again, I would have no problem with being so asked ....and I would rather not shoot with a fellow who pitched a fit about it anyway.
Finally, whether this is a living history AND shooting organization, or whether we want to separate these two aspects of NCOWS (which I'm not sure is a good idea), the shooting part is a game/competition and as such there are rules to govern how the competition is conducted, both for safety and for maintaining some type of fairness within the competition. Here we are considering a possible rule.....BUT THE WILLINGNESSS TO ENFORCE IS PARAMOUNT if it is to be workable Otherwise it is all a pointless farce. :-\
Quote from: Cuts Crooked on December 28, 2005, 10:40:01 AM
.....BUT THE WILLINGNESSS TO ENFORCE IS PARAMOUNT if it is to be workable. Otherwise it is all a pointless farce. :-\
There is the essence. NCOWS folks posting here seem heavily of the opinion that one is to police themselves. Nice if that actually happens. What about those that don't? Especially with a rule that concerns something not readily discerened by casual inspection with any accuracy, things like actual muzzle velocities, actual angles of lever strokes, etc. Rules with no intent and mechanism for enforcement simply invite derision.
A previous post by Cuts gets quite to the point re "fair" versus "just". Rules without effective means of inforcement are neither.
Lars
Cuts,
You could do everybody seemlessly and efficiently with the Chrono. Just have the shooter pass the chrono test before they pick up their shooters packet. Also consider something. The biggest shoot in NCOWS has 150 shooters attend, I believe. Being swamped with numbers is a good problem to have. But it is a problem the most of NCOWS does not have yet. I believe most clubs will eventually have problems, because NCOWS is a good group, but not now. Especially if someone is chronographed before they are allowed to pick up the packet.
i agree lets let this one go to the glue factory ;D
We've sent many issues to the glue factory....
...and they've always just stuck around (http://www.lone-gunman.com/rotf.gif)
Quote from: Lone Gunman on December 28, 2005, 09:41:45 PM
We've sent many issues to the glue factory....
...and they've always just stuck around (http://www.lone-gunman.com/rotf.gif)
Speaking of short strokes! Just kidding! ;D I'm afraid to shoot in the same posse as Lone Gunman. That gun breakin' bad juju might rub off on me. Starting my 4th year of CAS, I've seen a few firearm mishaps (trouble with functioning) and George has had the most! But you can't rattle him! No sir! He just keeps on going and going and going. Kind of like the Energizer bunny (he has his own action figure also!). ;D
Let me be the first to express my admiration for George's elegant explanation for why dead horses seeem to always be with us.
Lars
seriously, I am not trying to continue any beatings of expired equine, but, what are "recommended" min/max velocities?
I always "assumed" that you should keep the bullet going faster than 700fps but under 1000fps. Regardless of caliber.
Now, a 31pocket pistol is only going to do about 600fps with BP. So, the "suggestion" is really for cartridges.
Sound "reasonable"?
Ensign John,
It is quite unseemly for an Officer, even a very junior one to be seen doing manual labor! ::) ;D ::)
I hope what you really meant to say was that you were supervising other ranks doing the actual digging!
Capt. Dr. Bob
US Topographical Engineer
I think that the presistance of dead horses can be traced to improper burial. In other words, as Lone Gunman indicates, because they were taken to glue factory instead. It behoves the officers in charge, or whoever is, to do this burial properly. Even if the officers have to do it themselves. Maybe burial with honors of those long suffering horses would do the trick. They do deserve some reward for all their suffering.
Lars