Can anyone tell me which powder measures are safe (relatively) for use with black powder? I run Dillon equipment, seems to me the Dillon measures working parts are aluminum so shouldn't be friction/spark problem? Are there others that you guys use? The measure wouldn't be mounted on the press, would be mounted several feet away separately, as I experienced a primer magazine explosion in 1992, a full tube of Federal large pistol primers set off, I think, by static electricity. Went in to shock and passed out, very loud. If the measure being so close had contained black powder might have been a sympathetic explosion? Any advice would be appreciated.
DD
Not suppose to do it but I have solely used RCBS Chargemasters since they first came on the market. I'm on my second one now. Plus a drop tube on the Dillon.
Billy
Dick,
I asked about this a couple years ago and got mixed reactions and advice. Asking specifically about a Dillon SDB, I was warned about the static that might (might?) build up on the plastic hopper.
Not knowing who to believe I opted to load my BP ammo on my old single station RCBS Jr., and I throw charges with an old, vintage Pacific Pistol Powder Measure which has a brass hopper and rotors. I've had to drill out the rotors to get enough volume and in most cases I have to throw two or three measures per case. Still it's more consistent than dipping charges and so much faster than weighing each charge by hand. The latter being totally unnecessary with BP.
YMMV,
Dave
Man ought to do what he thinks is best.
But a pound of EXPLOSIVE Real Gun Powder right in front of your face don?t look like a good way to collect Social Security.
It will for a certain fact be a closed casket service.
But like I said a man ought to do what the thinks is best because folks learn by getting bit.
But you ain?t gonna get bit but once whether it?s your fault, the machine?s fault, or nobody?s fault you are off to the land of no misses.
Bunk
p.s. lotta John Wayneisms here in case you missed it...and if you did shame on you
Greetings My Good Netizens
There is a lot of experience and collective wisdom here.
HOWEVER
Bunk makes a good point.
There are some plastics that have anti-static agents in the mix. Some rotors are aluminum and *
might not spark*
we can all have opinions, But we don't really know do we?
A person in a given situation can get away with a lot of stuff for years before the magic combination of
that "perfect storm" happens ... and then you could be dead.
In issues such as this, I always advise : CALL THE MANUFACTUROR!Quote from: Dave T on January 31, 2020, 11:55:12 AM
...
Not knowing who to believe I opted to load my BP ammo on my old single station RCBS Jr., and I throw charges with an old, vintage Pacific Pistol Powder Measure which has a brass hopper and rotors. I've had to drill out the rotors to get enough volume and in most cases I have to throw two or three measures per case. Still it's more consistent than dipping charges and so much faster than weighing each charge by hand. The latter being totally unnecessary with BP.
YMMV,
Dave
Good choice Dave - brass hopper and rototrs == non-sparking and antistatic.
I can only find two measures out there that are specifically made for BP:
Hornady Lock-N-Load Blackpowder Powder Measure (which has been discontinued)
Lyman No 55 - redesigned:
https://www.cabelas.com/product/Lyman-No-Classic-Black-Powder-Measure/740957.uts ( out of stock)
https://www.lymanproducts.com/55-classic-powder-measure (Lyman Itself, in stock )
https://www.opticsplanet.com/lyman-55-classic-black-powder-measure.html (in stock)
https://www.natchezss.com/lyman-55-classic-black-powder-measure.html (in stock)
I will leave this open for a while in case anyone else can come up with another
FACTORY AUTHORISED BP MEASURE.
be safe.
if you don't care enough about your safety, I bet your family does.
prof marvel
I have seen this subject discussed and cussed on quite a few forums. Including this one in the past. There are several schools of thought. There are lots of Old Wives Tales. First a CAVEAT: No One has been able to ignite BP or a Sub with Static Electricity. There have been numerous (no, I don't have links) You Boob videos of people trying. If you're really concerned, ground your press. Static is a moot point for BP. Just doesn't happen. Also for nervous nellies, just wipe out the interior of your powder measure with a laundry static sheet.
Primers do not detonate from Static Electricity. Primers detonate from impact. Those whom have experienced a stack of primers going off have unquestionably needed a change of undies. Primer detonations in a primer feeder are caused by a primer being inadvertently crushed by the press. Primers can fit, go sideways, hang up in the feeder, the tube can become damaged, causing all of the foregoing to happen. NOT Static.
I don't care what you use to dispense your BP. It doesn't matter. You're going to be standing RIGHT THERE. Your measuring device is either going to be right in front of your face or just under your chin. You will still be standing RIGHT THERE. Neither scenario will be pleasant. There is only ONE absolutely SAFE option. Don't load or store BP at all.
Everyone must make their own best decision based on available FACTS. NOT old wives tales. I personally load on a Dillon. I have one press set up for Large Primers and another press set up for Small Primers. I have been loading BP and Subs with my onboard Dillon measures for years. I do not fear Static Electricity. I have one rule. NEVER EVER FORCE ANYTHING. If the press doesn't feel right, STOP find the problem and fix it. If your running your Dillon in an attempt to mime a commercial cartridge machine, your going to get burned in some way, shape or form.
DIRTY DICK: Bottom Line for "ME" The available measures are all "relatively" safe. Keep in mind, it's a mechanical device and as such is subject to Murphy's Law. Fecal Matter may Propagate no matter what preparations ("H"??) you make.
Quote from: Coffinmaker on January 31, 2020, 05:54:17 PM
I have seen this subject discussed and cussed on quite a few forums. Including this one in the past. There are several schools of thought. There are lots of Old Wives Tales. First a CAVEAT: No One has been able to ignite BP or a Sub with Static Electricity. There have been numerous (no, I don't have links) You Boob videos of people trying. If you're really concerned, ground your press. Static is a moot point for BP. Just doesn't happen. Also for nervous nellies, just wipe out the interior of your powder measure with a laundry static sheet.
Primers do not detonate from Static Electricity. Primers detonate from impact. Those whom have experienced a stack of primers going off have unquestionably needed a change of undies. Primer detonations in a primer feeder are caused by a primer being inadvertently crushed by the press. Primers can fit, go sideways, hang up in the feeder, the tube can become damaged, causing all of the foregoing to happen. NOT Static.
I don't care what you use to dispense your BP. It doesn't matter. You're going to be standing RIGHT THERE. Your measuring device is either going to be right in front of your face or just under your chin. You will still be standing RIGHT THERE. Neither scenario will be pleasant. There is only ONE absolutely SAFE option. Don't load or store BP at all.
Everyone must make their own best decision based on available FACTS. NOT old wives tales. I personally load on a Dillon. I have one press set up for Large Primers and another press set up for Small Primers. I have been loading BP and Subs with my onboard Dillon measures for years. I do not fear Static Electricity. I have one rule. NEVER EVER FORCE ANYTHING. If the press doesn't feel right, STOP find the problem and fix it. If your running your Dillon in an attempt to mime a commercial cartridge machine, your going to get burned in some way, shape or form.
DIRTY DICK: Bottom Line for "ME" The available measures are all "relatively" safe. Keep in mind, it's a mechanical device and as such is subject to Murphy's Law. Fecal Matter may Propagate no matter what preparations ("H"??) you make.
Re; Static electricity and primers, let me describe what happened. I was loading .45 ACP for a customer in 1992 on a Dillon RL1050. It had been crushing primers lately and became a problem because there was no way the primer pieces could exit the shuttle bar assembly short of disassembling the press. It was an aggravation, the shuttle bar would stick with the primer pieces so I would reach around the press with my left hand to move the shuttle bar with my finger. Several manipulations were generally required to get it functioning again. I could see the greenish/yellow priming compound around the shuttle bar and should have stripped the press down and cleaned it, BUT, I only needed another 20 or so rounds to fill the order. I had just filled the primer magazine with 100 Federal large pistol primers, started loading again and another crushed primer. I reached around with my left hand to move the shuttle bar with my finger as usual and leaned close to the machine, perhaps 6 inches from the shuttle bar (with no eye protection!) as I touched the bar, didn't even move it, the whole magazine went off! There was NO percussion! I did not move the bar! BANG! The operating lever was not moved. It was so loud I went into shock. My wife heard the explosion and sat me down, I passed out briefly. I was extremely lucky (I believe I have an entire posse of guardian angels) being within 6 inches of the explosion without eye protection a piece of something caught the corner of my right eye, very minor injury, and thanks to the design of the Dillon I still have both eyes in spite of my stupidity. I should have stripped it down and cleaned it. If that wasn't static electricity, what was it? I was THERE! It happened to ME! Which begs the question; IF the hopper had been filled with black instead of Bullseye could the hopper of powder detonated as well?
I have since modified the Dillon to allow any primer pieces to fall out the bottom of the machine as well as timing the primer system. I load .44-40 on it now with no primer problems. Incidentally, Dillon warned in their manual NOT to use Federal primers!
DD
OK. I'll buy that. Great possibility you had an overabundance of priming compound ground up into fine particulates in the priming assembly. Static might be a factor. I wouldn't be dumb enough to rule it out. Static won't set off an intact undamaged primer. Priming compound "dust" on the other hand could be a problem.
That I know of, present day, there are no problems running Federal primers through a Dillon. Thousands of CAS shooters have run absolutely Millions of Federal Primers through Dillion and other machines.
I go back to my original caution. NEVER EVER FORCE anything. If your machine, regardless of manufacture, is crushing primers there is something VERY WRONG. STOP and fix it. Fortunately, the Primer feed for a Dillon is a two piece affair. Actually designed to contain a primer detonation. It (the primer assemble) will not contain the resulting explosion of Fecal Matter.
And Oh by the way. Safety Glasses were invented for very good reasons. Glad am I, the only real injury was to your .... ah .... um ..... shorts.
Almost Forgot: A Dillon powder measure has that nifty little snug fitting aluminum cap for a reason. It prevents the entry of foreign objects, such as flaming primer pieces from entering the powder pile.
Be safe out there.
I have used both the Lee Auto-Disk Powder Measure and powder through dies for smokeless and black powder without any problems.
I have disabled the auto rotate on my old 3 hole turret press.
As I do not have the double disk kit, I have to pull the handle twice to fill a 44-40 case with the required amount of black powder.
I use a Hornady powder measure with a brass meter cylinder. I have mentioned black powder in the Dillon showroom a few times and am always met with a very stern look and strong caution 'not to do that.' It is unthinkable to use black powder in any measuring device on a 650 because of the primer system.
Quote from: Coffinmaker on February 01, 2020, 09:54:15 AM
OK. I'll buy that. Great possibility you had an overabundance of priming compound ground up into fine particulates in the priming assembly. Static might be a factor. I wouldn't be dumb enough to rule it out. Static won't set off an intact undamaged primer. Priming compound "dust" on the other hand could be a problem.
That I know of, present day, there are no problems running Federal primers through a Dillon. Thousands of CAS shooters have run absolutely Millions of Federal Primers through Dillion and other machines.
I go back to my original caution. NEVER EVER FORCE anything. If your machine, regardless of manufacture, is crushing primers there is something VERY WRONG. STOP and fix it. Fortunately, the Primer feed for a Dillon is a two piece affair. Actually designed to contain a primer detonation. It (the primer assembI was very lucky but I learned my lessonle) will not contain the resulting explosion of Fecal Matter.
And Oh by the way. Safety Glasses were invented for very good reasons. Glad am I, the only real injury was to your .... ah .... um ..... shorts.
Almost Forgot: A Dillon powder measure has that nifty little snug fitting aluminum cap for a reason. It prevents the entry of foreign objects, such as flaming primer pieces from entering the powder pile.
Be safe out there.
Coffinmaker, you are exactly right, always wear eye protection. I learned my lesson the hard way. I don't believe it was the fault of the Federal primers, the machine was out of adjustment and my fault for not cleaning and adjusting it. I have the burst inner tube taped to the maching as a reminder. As I write the magazine is full of Federal large pistol. :-)
I'll add. I don't use the Dillon priming mechanism because I'm not a volume reloader / shooter. But, if I was, I would use it. I use an RCBS hand tool and prime 50 - 100 while watching the news or something. I like the "feel" you get with a hand primer plus, for some reason, I have always been more "leery" of the priming process than the powder dumping process.
Billy
As above ,, the Lyman 55 BP measure is one . And, a company named Black Dawg (now defunct), used to make a conversion kit for the Dillon powder measure. I've used both. If you would advertise for the Dillon conversion kit someone might have an extra one or one they're not using anymore.
Lots of Belding and Mull Measures on ebay right now. Good prices too.
Precise, repeatable, completely safe with BP. Most precision BP cartridge guys have one on their bench somewhere.
No point in asking the manufacturers as they will answer on the lawyer/safe side.
I load BP on my Lyman DPS III 'lectronic dispenser. Have been for years.
In any case, it strikes me that the physics of uncontained/uncompressed BP will not explode, but burn rather quickly !!!
This could be hazardous to your health and well being, but so is handling lead bullets and breathing air contaminated with primer/powder residue.
You gonna give up shooting because of that? :-\
I have to disagree about Real Black Gun Powder in a hopper.
Please understand real Black Gun Powder is an EXPLOSIVE not a flammable solid. Whether contained or
un-contained it detonates instantly. Pour out a small amount of real Black Gun Powder and a small amount of smokeless powder. A small amount meaning a half teaspoon. Carefully light each one. The Real Black Gun Powder ignites instantly. The smokeless powder will slowly flare up.
A hopper full of Real Black Gun Powder is a bomb right in front of your face.
Closed casket service at the sad singin' and deep diggin' time.
But " A man ought to do what he thinks best" to quote Hondo Lane
Yr' Obt' Svt'
Bunk
Quote from: Bunk on March 01, 2020, 04:39:52 PM
I have to disagree about Real Black Gun Powder in a hopper.
Please understand real Black Gun Powder is an EXPLOSIVE not a flammable solid. Whether contained or
un-contained it detonates instantly. Pour out a small amount of real Black Gun Powder and a small amount of smokeless powder. A small amount meaning a half teaspoon. Carefully light each one. The Real Black Gun Powder ignites instantly. The smokeless powder will slowly flare up.
A hopper full of Real Black Gun Powder is a bomb right in front of your face.
Closed casket service at the sad singin' and deep diggin' time.
But " A man ought to do what he thinks best" to quote Hondo Lane
Yr' Obt' Svt'
Bunk
I believe you are right, Bunk.
I had a full magazine of Federal large pistol primers detonate in my Dillon 1050 as explained previously, what I'm wondering is if the powder measure contained black powder rather than Alliant Bullseye if the powder would have detonated as well? The primer magazine is very close to the powder measure on the 1050.
Quote from: Yeso Bill on February 01, 2020, 01:51:42 PM
I'll add. I don't use the Dillon priming mechanism because I'm not a volume reloader / shooter. But, if I was, I would use it. I use an RCBS hand tool and prime 50 - 100 while watching the news or something. I like the "feel" you get with a hand primer plus, for some reason, I have always been more "leery" of the priming process than the powder dumping process.
Billy
HI Billy
I AM a volume reloader when I get a chance anyway, but I do the same thing. You can really watch TV et while priming cases, at least in comparison to measuring powder, or especially loading up Black Powder loads. I do it because I hated cleaning he Dillon 550 every 100 or so rounds. When I re-sized on the Dillon, all of the primer debris ended up in the primer seating area and well, since the Dillon's are supposed to be quicker, I re-size and prime off the Dillon then do the last 3 steps on it.
Later
Quote from: Bunk on March 01, 2020, 04:39:52 PM
I have to disagree about Real Black Gun Powder in a hopper.
Please understand real Black Gun Powder is an EXPLOSIVE not a flammable solid. Whether contained or
un-contained it detonates instantly. Pour out a small amount of real Black Gun Powder and a small amount of smokeless powder. A small amount meaning a half teaspoon. Carefully light each one. The Real Black Gun Powder ignites instantly. The smokeless powder will slowly flare up.
A hopper full of Real Black Gun Powder is a bomb right in front of your face.
Closed casket service at the sad singin' and deep diggin' time.
But " A man ought to do what he thinks best" to quote Hondo Lane
Yr' Obt' Svt'
Bunk
Bunk
Black powder burns really really REALLY fast yeah - detonate ? No - uncontained it goes poof with gusto, much smoke, lotsa flame - a pound of it in front of yr nose ? big trouble = no whiskers left - no eyebrows, no hair back to at least level with yr ears and ya proly set the whole joint on fire - primers exploding - cans of powder lighting up - burns are gonna be yr biggest problem - ambulance will come - fire brigade will come - the lady of the house will not be impressed at all with these antics. ;D
This doesnt bug me so much, I use a manual loading press and scoop measure my powder out of a smallish dish - onto the scale pan then down the drop tube for my long range loads - cowboy guns I just line up the emptys and eyeball fill em with a powder horn. I do this because its what I do not because I am scairt also because I do not want the hassle of cleaning BP residue out of my one and only rotary powder measure (cast iron frame would rust between loading sessions)
I know a lot of blackpowder shooters - its seriously been my game for thirty years and twenty before that tinkering round the edges - have never heard of an accident in the loading room - theres been a few underpants incidents reported along the way from ranges - spilled powder on a bench caught fire - couple of powder horns gone off (didnt SEE any of this) ramrods fired up the range - the first and only re-enactment I participated in, someone fired a ramrod at the opposing forces - I reported the incident (not the shooter) and I hear that ramrods are now a no deal at these shows. Two serious accidents in that 30 years, both of em top level competive shooters had 38calibre ML slug guns self ignite in the loading process - one bloke almost lost his hand when the slug shredded itself past the ramrod end and an ugly hunk of extruded lead over two inches long chewed up the meaty part of his hand ---nasty!
I load my BP pistol caliber CAS loads on my Dillon 550 but use the pour through funnel setup and dip and pour the powder by hand. Still tons faster than single stage just have to stay focused. Handle down, pour in powder. Handle up to prime the just resized case, rotate, set bullet and fresh case. Handle down and repeat. Goes pretty fast actually.
When I drop in a new batch of primers I always move my cup of powder far away. I'm thinking about making an adapter to use my Lyman 55 black powder thrower on it to work manually but I'm not sure it would be that much faster than dipping the charge and dumping and may be worth the extra time rather than a hopper of black powder in my face in case of some freak instance a primer might go off in the press.
If you're going to stick with measures that are said to be bp safe, then you have few options, the Lyman 55, Hornady makes an aluminum tubed measure for black, and the older Belding and Mull measures, MVA makes a modern copy of the BH
I ran a Lyman 1200 DPS for many years and several cases of black powder, it finally crapped out, and I'm now using the RCBS Charge master.
I have been using a Lyman #55 for years to charge cases and throw charges for the cap guns. I use small glass specimen bottles to hold the cap gun loads.
I have also mounted the Lyman on my Dillon 550 in order to charge the case in the loading process. Never had a problem doing this but I stopped because it seemed to throw off my loading rhythm.
While I am here let me say that I do not believe it is possible to ignite black powder with a static spark, Not enough heat. Primer dust, I don't know. Also, black powder burns, it does not explode.
Lucky
I use the Hornady BP measure on my A&P. It works like a charm. I also have a Lyman 55 BP measure which I use in conjunction with my T7.
Lucky,
You had better live up to your alias because Black Gun Powder IS an EXPLOSIVE not a flammable solid like nitro powders.
EXPLOSIVE is what it says on Du Pont cans, KIK cans,and Graf (Wano) cans. I did not have time to look at Swiss, Olde Eynsford, or GOEX cans but they most likely say EXPLOSIVE somewhere.
Blasting powder, which is a granulation of Black Gun Powder, is what was used in the old days to remove rock for tunnels and things like that before Mr. Alfred Noble found out how to tame nitroglycerin.
If you doubt what I am saying get a pound of smokeless powder and a pound of real Black Gun Powder brand immaterial.
Stick a long (two or three minutes long) fuse in each can light them and walk away.
DO NOT do this in your back yard because there will be an interesting bang when the BP explodes.
Not so with the nitro powder it will flare up but not explode.
Keep pushing it Lucky and there may be some sad singing and deep digging around your house and us fellow shooters would not like to hear that.
Yr' Obt' Svt'
Bunk
A little thread drift here:
I shouldn't tell this story but I will. 40 plus years ago I was on a BP Elk Hunt. I got rained on and decided to build a fire and warm up. All of the tinder I gathered was damp so I poured a small pile of BP out of the horn on a flat, dry rock and then laid my tinder and larger pieces over it. So, I kneeled down and lit it with a match. Lol Big mistake. The flash burned all of the hair off of my hand and the explosion blew all the wood every direction 5 or 6 feet.
So, the lesson learned is BP truly is a potent explosive. Those tv shows we watched as kids with frontiersmen using BP to start a fire was pure BS.
Greetings!
For what it's worth, I use one of two Ideal #5 Powder Measures when reloading cartridge cases with BP; attached to the spout is a foot long piece of copper tubing. The body of the measure is cast steel; the brass tumbler has grain and drahm increments stamped on it, which are fairly accurate. Although product liability when this Measure was made is nothing like it is now, I'm fairly certain that Ideal didn't have it out for their clientele.
MTM
I use the lyman 55 with the aluminum hopper and the lyman alum drop tube
I've used the Lee auto disk on a Loadmaster for years and even had a full tray of Federal 150's go off without issue.
On my 650 I have the no longer available kit with aluminum hopper installed and loaded for years with that. Now in my old age I'm a little more cautious and though it adds time, I first size and prime all my cases on the 650 and then load them in the case feeder again, change tool heads, and go about finishing the job.
OK, so no Black Powder.
How about Pyrodex or APP? Both of those have a higher ignition temperature and from what I have seen flash a lot slower than Back when uncontained.