I am in the process of saving up for an Uberti 1860 Richards Transition Type 2. The forum has already helped me with a question I had about the trigger guard, and I greatly appreciate that! I was perusing a discussion of a verified martial 1860 conversion on the Colt Forum, and one thing I noticed was that the gun in that discussion had the rear sight on the conversion ring. Considering how few of these were sold to the Army, I figure (AKA: WAG) if a verified sample of 1 has the rear sight on the ring, then probably all of the guns sold to the Army did.
Part of why I want this gun is for living history events where we lay out guns and gear for visitors to see, so my goal is to make this Uberti close enough (hence why I now have a brass 1860 trigger guard in my parts box waiting for the rest of the gun). So my questions are thus:
1. Would all of the martial Richards Transition 1860s have had the rear sight on the conversion ring, or would some of them have used the hammer notch?
2. Is there a vendor/smith who sells a ring with rear sight that would work in the Uberti?
I appreciate the insight. This forum is full of great information.
Link to discussion on Colt Forum: https://www.coltforum.com/forums/colt-percussion-revolvers/370151-us-richards.html (https://www.coltforum.com/forums/colt-percussion-revolvers/370151-us-richards.html)
A good reference work for conversions is R. Bruce McDowell's A Study of Colt Conversions and Other Percussion Revolvers. The books are kind of costly, but I was able to find a PDF version here: https://epdf.pub/a-study-of-colt-conversions-and-other-percussion-revolvers.html (https://epdf.pub/a-study-of-colt-conversions-and-other-percussion-revolvers.html)
Hopefully that helps in your research.
CC Griff
Hi 103,
Basically, No, No and No. I think that may be enough No's.
The first Richards conversions had the rear sight on the Conversion Ring. The Transition Type 2 was a much later gun. The type 2 did not have the rear sight on the conversion ring. The Army had lots and lots of 1860s. What would have been returned to Colt for conversion would be primarily speculation. There "could" have been both Type 1 and Type 2 conversions done, depending on when the guns were sent to Colt.
There is no vendor or Smith that makes or markets a conversion ring with an integral rear sight. The only current gated conversion available is from Kirst Konverter, without a rear sight.
The Uberti Type 2 is oversized to permit inclusion of the .45 Colt and .45 Schofield cartridges. Colt never converted 1860s to chamber 45 Colt. Colt guns were only converted to chamber .44 Colt. The only conversion your likely to find (other than an original) dimensionally "close enough" would be an 1860 conversion done with a Kirst Konverter on either a Pietta or Uberti.
I would be very surprised to find where a TYPE 2 conversion would have been done to the batch of guns the Army sent back to Colt for conversion. Lots and lots of speculation there along with lots and lots of Arm Chair Experts. Good Luck in your Pursuit.
103: I'm not sure where you are on your knowledge of Colt Conversions before Colt came out with the Open Top, which wasn't a conversion, but a new model. Don't take offense, but everyone had to learn sometime. If you are already well informed, someone who reads this may find it new. First off if possible read Bruce McDowells book on Colts open top style revolvers, their heritage and history. It's not a easy to find book, someone you know may have a copy you could borrow. Also Dennis Adler wrote two excellent books on Colts. 1) Colt Single Action and 2) Metallic Cartridge Conversions, both give history, production, and a lot of info on the various Colt conversions, both can be found online. Several older books by Charles Haven and James Serven are chuck-full of Colt model history and info. 12-15 years ago until I read up on them, I knew squat about them other than they existed. I'm by no means an expert, others may jump in and either correct me and/or add additional info.
You basically had three Colt conversions using the Army percussion revolver.
(1-The Richards, (Colt engineer Charles Richards) had the rear sight on the conversion ring, a rebounding firing pin within the frame, and a ground off hammer with a flat appearance, and a ejector system that used the existing lug holes for attachment.
2) The Richards II, which was a refinement of the original (or Richards I as some call it) in that the rebounding firing pin in the frame was eliminated and the hammer was outfitted with a pinned firing pin. The conversion ring was refined. The rear sight was taken off of the conversion ring and a notched hammer as in the original 1860 Army was reintroduced as the rear sight, also the original ejector system was retained. Another Colt engineer, Richard Mason helped with this change
3) The Richards/Mason. These conversions used all of the changes of the Richards II, but Mason designed a new cartridge ejector that eliminated the use of the old rammer lug hole and the ejector was screwed to the barrel. A lot of 1851 and 1861 Navy frames were also used in the Richard/Mason revolver model. In the first two conversion models, Colt used existing 1860 percussion revolvers and parts to produce them. The Richards/Mason did also, but a lot of the parts were newly made. After these three models, Colt then came out with a newly produced model, not converted from percussion revolvers, 'The Open Top', which resembled the Richards/Mason in a lot of ways, but was produced from all new forged frame, cylinders, and parts. The Open Top had a non-stepped frame and non-rebated cylinder, it had a pinned firing pin on the hammer, and the rear sight was forged onto the rear of the barrel. I've left a lot of 'holes' here and there in the run of these revolvers, but gave the basics of them.
In answer to your questions, all of the Martial Richards (Richards I), would have had the face of the original hammer ground off flat to resemble in a lot of ways what can be found on original Ruger single actions before the transfer bar models. There was the rebounding type firing pin in the frame to strike the primer.
The answer to your question about anyone selling a conversion ring with the original Richards rear sight on it, haven't heard of any. Fox Creek Kid who used to post a lot on this forum had someone make him a Richards I style revolver onetime, but it cost some dollars to do to convert. You change over to that, then you'd need to convert the hammer to a flat face to strike the rebounding firing spring. The Richards I conversion ring was a bit bulkier also vs the Richards II if I recall right. Hoof Hearted who posts once in a while is a working gunsmith who has done a lot of conversion work, even fabricating his own Colt Thuer copies. I'm not sure if you could remove the conversion ring on a Richards II that you advise you're going to buy and replace it with a Richards I unless a lot of fabrication was done. 45 Dragoon who posts on this forum does a lot of tuning and special applications to open Colt style revolvers, but I've never read where he does the type of 'conversion' of a Richards II back to a Richards I. Coffinmaker who posts on CAS says he's a retired gunsmith, but he seems to be doing a lot of things all of the time, but says he's not looking for business. There's some 'plugs' for you guys.
From all of the books I've read on why Colt went to the Richards II from the 'I', it was for dollars. The Richards I was expensive even during those times to convert, so that's why they dropped the original Richards which saved them dollars. From what I've read, Uberti probably will never offer a copy of the 'I' due to the fact they can make the 'II' so much cheaper and feel that there wouldn't be enough demand to cover costs. I'm just happy they produce the Richards II, which is my favorite of the four I have, a RM and two Open Tops, plus the Richards II. If it were me, for the cost of converting a already conversion replica back to it's parent model, I'd leave it as is due to the cost involved. During your presentations to visitors at living history events I'd just lay out the Richards II you intend to buy and explain how Colt converted the percussion guns to cartridge if that's what you want to do and tell them ya got Junior instead of PaPa and possibly mention the RM and Open Top. Ya could advise how the Open Top was the forerunner of the famous Colt Model of 1873 that probably most have seen in a multitude of westerns. I bet the majority of them have no idea and a lot of them wouldn't give 2 cents what one you have for display. Well if you and all who read this are still awake after reading all of this (I never get windy), hope it helps and informs. Like I advised earlier, I left a lot of smaller detail out and 'an expert' may need to correct me. "Good night Mrs. Calabash, wherever you are"! Crow Choker
Note: Added Jan 09---Yer right Abilene--The Richards II retained the notch in the hammer for the rear sight as in the original 1860 Army (as did the Richards/Mason models). Musta been thinking Open Top which had the rear sight on the rear of the barrel as you penned. Don't know why I penned it that way, I've sighted down that Richards II enough times since getting it back in 2008 and also my Richards/Mason. I corrected it above in the post. Thanks for the correction, Yer a Gentleman and a Scholar. :) CC (If yer reading this thread for the first time, this note was added after Abilene posted below this posting)
Crowchoker, slight correction: The Type II has the rear sight on the hammer nose, not the rear of the barrel (I guess you had Opentop in mind).
103: Other than spending a lot of money and a very long time waiting, you are not going to come up with an exactly authentic looking Richards conversion (Type I, with the sight on the conversion ring). I see two options for you that will be close:
1. Find an Armi San Marcos (ASM) Richards conversion, a .44. Imported by Navy Arms, Cimarron, others, a little over 20 years ago. They pop up now and then. Neat looking guns. But lots of quality problems. Some okay. Most not. If you aren't shooting it, that is a plus. Many had nickled gripframes, as many originals were silverplated. The only real visual difference is that the originals had a stepped frame and rebated cylinder, like the .44 percussion guns they were converted from. The ASM conversion all have a straight cylinder and frame (Navy). 99% of people who see the gun will not notice that.
2. Get a Cimarron Type II, which is accurate for that model. It is slightly bigger than orignal as Coffinmaker mentioned though visually nobody would know. Compared to the Richards I that you are wanting, it is missing the sight on the rear ring. 99% of people who see the gun will not notice that.
Or, get the conversion cylinder and ejector for a '60 percussion gun, which will also be missing the sight on the conversion ring.
Oh yeah, or buy an original. You could get one in fair shape for a few thousand.
Two costly alternatives:
# have a C&B 1860 Army replica converted to a Richards by a conversion artist - ? 1500+,
# have an oversized Uberti R2 converted to a Richards by a conversion artist - ? 300 to 500.
Pics of a friend's former Uberti R2 converted to R1
Long Johns Wolf
Gentlemen, I greatly appreciate the insights. I will probably go the route of getting the Uberti and explaining the differences should someone ask. I do about 99% ACW living history at Fort Clinch, but we have a couple of days out of the year where we can talk Indian Wars through Spanish American War. I just want to expand when I can talk to visitors about (and it doesn't hurt that my logic includes buying more guns).
Any "Logic" that leads to or seriously incites one to "Buy More Guns" cannot be at all "Bad."
I would also suggest digging around to find an Armi San Marco built 1860 conversion, even though the ASM also is not quite correct. Let's face it. 99.98 of your living history attendees won't recognize the difference. Although, in all honesty, ANY sample of example of a converted Colt would probably suffice.
Just FYI, in addition to the McDowell book referenced before, I also have Metallic Cartridge Conversions written and photographed by Dennis Adler.
Not as in depth nor detailed as the McDowell book; but as my grandson says it has lots of pictures. ;)
Quote from: paperchaser on September 07, 2020, 04:03:58 PM
Just FYI, in addition to the McDowell book referenced before, I also have Metallic Cartridge Conversions written and photographed by Dennis Adler.
Not as in depth nor detailed as the McDowell book; but as my grandson says it has lots of pictures. ;)
High fives to ya on that post. I have all of Adlers books reference cap n' balls, conversions, etc. As you posted, very well photographed and alot of information. Recommend them highly to any one wanting to read about the subject of early Colt, Remington, and S&W handgun development.
103, here a couple of my Conversions, to see the difference. I think the Type 1 Nickeled one was the one made for Fox Creek Kid, and the blued one is a Cimarron Type II with a brass trigger guard added by me to try to make it look more a Type II. Both in 44 Colt.
Reno
Here is a pair of the Armi San Marco revolvers cut for the 44 Colt (modern) cartridge. Also a picture of the hammer and one looking over the sights.
Kevin
Strawhat, would you be interested in selling one of 44 Colt Conversions? If so let me know.
Reno
103
Back in the later 1990's Kenny Howell was making these.
He custom built several for the film "Last Stand at Saber River " including this one in 1997.
For Tom Selleck he made 3 hero guns with the faux ivory grips... one went to the Director, one is in the NRA National Firearms Museum donated by Selleck, the 3rd went to the late Elmore Leonard ( Writer ) where it might be now is unknown .
Mr. Howell provided custom firearms as well for Selleck in 2001's Crossfire Trail and Monte Walsh (2002).
This one on a 2nd Gen Colt
This a Type II in my collection
Quote from: reno on October 10, 2020, 11:26:37 AM
Strawhat, would you be interested in selling one of 44 Colt Conversions? If so let me know.
Reno
The main caution about Armi San Marco is they had some unique dimensions and spotty quality control. Repair parts are unobtainable unless you had another Armi San Marco, so try to buy both. One to shoot and t'other to scavenge parts. ;)
RCJ
RCJ,
Too right. I found most ASM Conversion replacement parts, would't fit ASM guns without a TON of fitting if at all. Also correct, today, spare parts are in someone else's gun.
PS Additional for Major Two . . . . "Kenny Howell" Atz "Kenny" (Tee Hee Tee Hee Tee Hee) Nanny Nanny Poo Poo
Quote from: reno on October 10, 2020, 11:26:37 AM
Strawhat, would you be interested in selling one of 44 Colt Conversions? If so let me know.
Reno
Reno, not at this time. The QC issues were with the c&b revolvers made toward the end of the company's existence. The cartridge revolvers are pretty good based on my experience and several others. When I got my first one, I also bought into the soft parts internet hype. I promptly gathered some Pietta and Uberti internals and rebuilt all of the working parts. When I got the second oneI left it alone as I had spare parts. I kept shooting it waiting for it to break. Back then I was shooting a lot. PPC competitions mostly but to relax, I would haul out the Richards. After 5 or six years, a part broke! In the revolver I rebuilt. I replaced the factory guts and it has been going strong since then.
Kevin
Thanks for the reply, Strawhat.
Reno
I am going to put this one up on auction soon. two sets of grips one walnut and one Ivorex mexican eagle and box,
Lots of good info in here guys, as usual. Thanks.
Quote from: Long Johns Wolf on January 09, 2020, 02:15:45 AM
Two costly alternatives:
# have a C&B 1860 Army replica converted to a Richards by a conversion artist - ? 1500+,
# have an oversized Uberti R2 converted to a Richards by a conversion artist - ? 300 to 500.
Pics of a friend's former Uberti R2 converted to R1
Long Johns Wolf
Is there anyone sill making type two into a type 1?
Ah, no one currently that I am aware of. Might still be one guy in Europe still doing it. Dunno.
Yes, the smith in Austria, Karl Nedbal, is still doing the R2 - R1 "transitions".
Long Johns Wolf
Quote from: Long Johns Wolf on December 07, 2023, 01:30:44 AM
Yes, the smith in Austria, Karl Nedbal, is still doing the R2 - R1 "transitions".
Long Johns Wolf
LJW---Were the prices you quoted in 2020 from this guy? Wonder what his current price is? Were your quotes in US dollars? Imagine the price of shipping one over and back or having one purchased in Austria and shipped to the US wouldn't be cheap.
Quote from: Crow Choker on December 07, 2023, 10:24:10 AM
LJW---Were the prices you quoted in 2020 from this guy? Wonder what his current price is? Were your quotes in US dollars? Imagine the price of shipping one over and back or having one purchased in Austria and shipped to the US wouldn't be cheap.
I believe, but cannot prove, that the biggest impediment would be the entire "cartridge gun import/export nonsense!
I ahve seen a number of "pre 1898" cartridge guns on auction sights coming from Britain or the EU but the
Import nonsense is so crazy I would fear for ever getting it, let alone the ulcer inducing paperwork....
Yhs
Prof mumbles
Hear ya there Professor, was thinking when I typed that post the import/export nightmare.
Do you want me to check back for you with Nedbal?
Where to obtain the R2, prices of the R1-conversion ring, installation and fitting?
Long Johns Wolf
Would just the conversion ring be available for purchase and there be the big problem of importing to the US?
"Historical replacement parts" were imported into the USA w/o problems.
However, you should be able to remove the R2 conversion ring from the Ubert and fit the R1 ring ... or have a smith who would do that for you.
Long Johns Wolf
Quote from: Long Johns Wolf on December 10, 2023, 01:43:58 AM
"Historical replacement parts" were imported into the USA w/o problems.
However, you should be able to remove the R2 conversion ring from the Ubert and fit the R1 ring ... or have a smith who would do that for you.
Long Johns Wolf
You would then need to modify the hammer as well, or maybe a percussion hammer be a drop in?
If any become available I would be interested in buying. Thanks for all the info. Right now I am thinking about buying a Type 2 in 38 special to build as close as cn be a 61 Navy conversion. But would much rather have a Type 1 but that could be a while.
:) Abilene ;)
Correctamundo!! Hammer has to be modified as well. richards Firing Pin is of course, frame mounted in the Breach Ring.
Greetings everyone, I know this is an old thread but I just bumped into it and I am researching the possibility of converting a Uberti Type II conversion into a Type 1 conversion myself. What I have come up with so far is: Type II conversion rings are available from most of the parts distributers (Numrich, Tayler's, Cimarron, and VTI - parts in stock varies). Get a new conversion ring, fabricate a block to fit in the hammer slot to act as the rear sight nub and firing pin hole then weld it in place. Use a replacement firing pin and retaining screw from a Ruger Vaquero, grind off the nose of a replacement hammer. replace the steel trigger guard with a brass one. If I can get access to a mill or lathe then I'll weld a ring around the the perimeter of the conversion ring to enclose the back of the cylinder. Additionally, I just found out that The Rifle Shoppe has raw castings of the Colt Richards Army Conversion parts. I've sent a message to them to see if their parts would work with a Uberti conversion or not. I'll let you all know what I find out. My plan is to do all of this work myself and it will take some time to complete. Also I'm planning on using replacement parts instead of the original ones incase I mess them up.
:) Vaqueros1876 ;)
Are you absolutely determined to do this project the hard way?? It would be much simpler to source a Kirst Konverter and add a rear sight to the Kirst breach ring and cut the top off of the hammer. ALL of the Colt built Richards Type 1 were not completed with the Breach Ring/Cylinder Gap enclosed. Completing it on a .36 frame and barrel would also keep the overall size closer to original.
Just a couple of practical thoughts. Do remember to take your Broker to Lunch before you take the big leap ::)
Ron Snover built this one from an Uberti around 20 years ago or so. He said it was a real pain in the a$$ to make.
And of course, what he ended up with wasn't even an authentic copy, though beautiful.
:) Vaqueros1876 ;)
Are you absolutely determined to do this project the hard way?? It would be much simpler to source a Kirst Konverter and add a rear sight to the Kirst breach ring and cut the top off of the hammer. ALL of the Colt built Richards Type 1 were not completed with the Breach Ring/Cylinder Gap enclosed.
Coffinmaker, I'm a little confused or I'm missing something. My idea is to get a Uberti type II conversion ring from one of the parts dealer for about $90 and weld on the rear sight to it. I would also need to install a firing pin but that is just drilling a couple of holes, threading the larger one for the firing pin retainer and done. The only extra work between that and starting with a Kirst conversion is the firing pin? This would be done on a Uberti type II that I already have so for money wise I'm out the cost of the replacement parts.
Abilene, that is a nice looking pistol.
:) Vaqueros ;)
OK. When I first read your description it presented a rather convoluted. Sorry if I miss-understood. Are you starting with the Type II in .45 or .38?? Just curious. Have fun with the project!!
:) Abilene ;)
Atz a really nice conversion, even if it is all scratched Up (Grins). Ron Snover was a class Gunplumber and a good friend of mine. He was smart enough to retire before I did. Building his conversion on aN R/M Frame and Barrel eased a couple of small problems relating to parts that weren't available 20 or so years ago.
Appears it was about to go into someone's Sale Display Cabinet??
Coffinmaker, it's marked 44 Colt. It's one of the early imports that were chambered in 44 Special but marked 44 Colt. I've had it for nearly 20 years now.
Quote from: Coffinmaker on January 06, 2025, 06:10:33 AM:) Abilene ;)
Atz a really nice conversion, even if it is all scratched Up (Grins). Ron Snover was a class Gunplumber and a good friend of mine. He was smart enough to retire before I did. Building his conversion on aN R/M Frame and Barrel eased a couple of small problems relating to parts that weren't available 20 or so years ago.
Appears it was about to go into someone's Sale Display Cabinet??
The display case was Texas Jack's at Mule Camp. Ron brought the gun to show it off.
Quote from: Vaqueros1876 on January 06, 2025, 09:09:59 AMCoffinmaker, it's marked 44 Colt. It's one of the early imports that were chambered in 44 Special but marked 44 Colt. I've had it for nearly 20 years now.
Vaqueros1876: Is your Uberti stamped with Cimarron's name on the barrel? Wondering as my first Uberti cartridge revolver was a Cimarron 71-72' Open Top chambered in 44 Spec bought in late 2007 but stamped 44 Colt. Wanted 44 Spec but in talking with Cimarron rep he advised the current Ubeti Colt Open Tops and conversions chambered in 44 Spec but stamped 44 Colt were done that way as they had alot of feedback from customers wanting 44 Spec chambered Colts but didn't want a cartridge stamping on them of a cartridge that wasn't introduced until after 1900. Just more of that 'Period Correct' BS IMO.
Anyway buy the time I bought a Uberti Richards II from Cimarron in late 2008 in 44 Spec, that situation of stamping a 44 Spec with 44 Colt had ceased. Cimarron rep advised me it lead to to much confusion. Not sure what year that started and if it was done for other importers. I don't believe Taylors was even offering an Open Top or any Colt conversions in 2007, may have just been a Cimarron thing.
Started out with the intention of loading 44 Colt rounds only with black powder and 44 Spec with smokeless, sort of a way to prevent cartridge confusion. Had a 66 Yellowboy rifle in 44 Spec also. Since 2010 or so all I shoot through my current stable of the Open Top, the Richards II, and a Richard Mason conversion (all 44 Spec) are FF Black and 200 grain Mav Dutchman's. Have another RM conversion in 38 Spec that gets black and a 38 caliber Snakebite bullet. The 44 Spec 66 Yellow boy just gets 44 Colts loaded with FF black and the Mav Dutch bullet also. No problem with cycling the rounds.
:) VAQUEROS ;)
OH NO MR. BILL!! Holy Cow. Atz just almost perfect or, actually is PERFECT. Colt never converted the 1860 to .45 Colt. The 1860s were all converted to 44 Colt or in some cases, 38 Long Colt. Ergo, you converting yours to a Type 1 will be super close except for the overall size of the gun. Most excellent indeede. I will be most interested in following your progress!! :D
My current project is converting a pair of Pietta 1851 .45 Marshall (never never) series guns from R&D 2 piece cylinders to Kirst Konverters. I've gotten tired of constantly taking 'em apart every CAS stage to reload. 'Mother really fun project you betcha!! ;D
:) Crow Choker ;)
Initially, the 71/72 Open Top was a Cimarron Exclusive. Then Cimarron and Uberti had a "set to" and Uberti offered Taylors and others, the 71/72 Open Top. Just to add to the weirdness, when I added .44 Colt/Special to my Open Tops, the barrels came stamped 44-40!! Uberti never made '71/72 Open Tops in 44-40. Go Figure.
Just also curious, do you have any Blow-By Fouling trouble with your 1866 running 44 Colt cases?? I have had to anneal my 44 Special cases as the chamber fouls terribly. Do the 44 Colt cases also cycle in the OEM Carrier Block?? .44 Russian cases require a Carrier Block modified for "short" cartridges. Ain't playing with guns just gobs of FUN!!!
Quote from: Coffinmaker on January 06, 2025, 01:49:01 PM:) Crow Choker ;)
Initially, the 71/72 Open Top was a Cimarron Exclusive. Then Cimarron and Uberti had a "set to" and Uberti offered Taylors and others, the 71/72 Open Top. Just to add to the weirdness, when I added .44 Colt/Special to my Open Tops, the barrels came stamped 44-40!! Uberti never made '71/72 Open Tops in 44-40. Go Figure.
After thinking about anyone offering the 71/72 Open Top other than Cimarron when I purchased mine in 2007, other than possibly private smiths or home built, I don't recall anyone offering the OT. If I recall right I bought direct from Cimarron as no one else seemed to be selling them, except a dealer that went through Cimarron. I sort of recall seeing Taylor's offering them when I either received a new catalog from them or saw it on their website way after I bought from Cimarron.
In regards to the Richards II and Richards Mason conversions, I've never figured out why Taylors calls the later Richards Mason conversions (last of the conversions Colt offered before the 1873 Peacemaker) the C.Mason Model. C for Charles as in Charles Richards who developed the original or Richards I model (and Richards II) and Mason for William Mason who refined the Richards models. Both Colt shop workers. Curious if there is some business or name usage restrictions. All made by Uberti. Yepper, a Open top in 44-40, the caliber in a Colt model that never was either originally or in the Italian reproduction onslaught.
Quote from: Coffinmaker on January 06, 2025, 01:49:01 PM:) Crow Choker ;)
Just also curious, do you have any Blow-By Fouling trouble with your 1866 running 44 Colt cases?? I have had to anneal my 44 Special cases as the chamber fouls terribly. Do the 44 Colt cases also cycle in the OEM Carrier Block?? .44 Russian cases require a Carrier Block modified for "short" cartridges. Ain't playing with guns just gobs of FUN!!!
Nope, never really a problem with 44 Colt Blow-By in my '66 or with 44 Specials when shooting them. Resize and load both using a RCBS Cowboy Die set. Load my own cast lead bullets using soft lead, BIN 8 or less, sized .430", SPG or Dick Dastardly Pearl lube. The only blow-by I've really had any problem with are 45 Colt rounds shot in a mid 1970's EMF Jagaur (sp) 73 Colt copy of the '73 Colt. Nice ol piece, good tight, smooth action. Shooting the same batch rounds in my Old Model Ruger Vaquero chambered for 45 Colt, I get no blow-by. Must be looser chambers in the EMF. The 44 Colt rounds shooting black in my revolvers and the '66 Winchester are fairly clean shooting considering using FF black.
The 44 Colt rounds cycle very good in the '66 as do the 44 Spec's. When first starting to shoot the 44 Colt rds in it I wondered if I may need to get a different carrier block as I had read of the possible need. Had read here on the forum of those doing so shooting 44 Russians and some doing so using 44 Colt. Have never had any hang-ups, fail to feed, and any of the other problems I've read. I can cycle the action fairly fast with no problem.
Cow choker, yep mine is marked "Cimarron", I picked it up from a local gun store in Helena MT back in 07 or 08. I've only ever shot black through it, mostly 44 Russian loaded with 23 gr of 3f and a 210 Lee boolit and a homemade lube. It's always done well. I've never shot it much just some plinking here and there. One of these days I want to get in to CAS and shoot it a bunch more but time has not been available yet.
Additional photos.
Back in 06 Uberti intro'ed & began to offer the Type II conversion.
I was all in to get one, Cimarron was the exclusive importer at that time.
But problem was, they just trickled in as multi order buyers were being first served.
I waited till "Shot 07" being held in Orlando that year, still none to be had.
I was told, just 60 more days, then just 60 more several times and at SHOT " maybe by the time "THEY Cimarron returned to Fredericksburg.
I saw Kenny Howell offering a Type 1 Richards conversion on your donor frame, but they were costly for the custom made piece.
One day, I saw one of the "Last Stand at Saber River" guns being offered.
I jumped on it as it was a bargain. see below.
In 08 I finally got a Type II in private deal and still have both.
I used the T-2 as my main match NOWS, I tapered off and haven't shot CAS in a couple of years though. :(
Big JUCY LIKE button for Vaqueros and The Major you betcha ;D
Those sure are downright PURTY you two.
Love those guns, Major. The Type 1 because of what it is, the Type II because it is gorgeous. :)
Well okay, here's mine. I put Navy grips on both. 44 1860 on top, 38 1861 on bottom. Shoot Russkies in the .44.
Abilene, dem sure are pur-dee! Same for you, Vaqueros and Major.
Thanks Guy's
44 Colt's in mine.
Yep!! I'm a lush for cartridge open-tops! Great lookin bunch!!
:) Great Big O'l LIKE Button for Abilene ;)
I'm personally also a LUSH for Cartridge Open Top Guns. ABSOLUTELY
For Mike by request His guns...
Pietta's .45s Shooting Cowboy 45 specials
Likebutton for those beautiful guns!
Hi,
It's been many years and I've had to re-register.
Do the new Uberti Richards have the ring on the front of the cylinder to reduce cylinder pin fouling, similar to the 72 opentop...?
For me, I like the Richards first model, the ASM ones are the only game in town. If you get one of the soft ones, soft metal innards, you can fit Uberti parts if you take your time and are careful, you can also re-harden the ASM parts using sugar and used Dino motor oil. I have an 1860 and an 1861 in 38spl, both shoot to POA and run well with real black. They suffered from premature cylinder pin fouling so I made a collar insert similar to the one on a 72 Opentop and I can run 40-50 rounds through them before it slows down.
This is my 1861 that I purchased here in the early 2000's, I call it my working mans gun because back in the day they went for about 12.50, and a new Colt P-frame was 25. To a guy making a dollar a day that was a big difference...
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1860, yes the Uberti conversions have gas rings on the cylinder fronts and they all do well with BP. Nice Richards you got there.
I have the memory of a Gnat. Way Back inna Wabac (thank you Sherman and the Perfesser) there was a retailer of ASM Richards replicants, that was adding a gas ring to the ASM guns. Unfortunately it wasn't a complete ring that required relieving of the barrel breach. It was made with a wedge shaped cutout to go around the barrel breach. It also worked fairly well.
I've always felt the ASM Richards were some of the bestest looking conversion replicants on the Planet. All were built on the 1851 frame and the only actual difference between the ASM 1861 and 1860 was the Grip Set. I fell deeply in lust after seeing them for the first time. It was a crying shame the QC was so abysmal.
Quote from: Coffinmaker on January 27, 2025, 09:05:19 AMhave the memory of a Gnat. Way Back inna Wabac (thank you Sherman and the Perfesser) there was a retailer of ASM Richards replicants, that was adding a gas ring to the ASM guns. Unfortunately it wasn't a complete ring that required relieving of the barrel breach. It was made with a wedge shaped cutout to go around the barrel breach. It also worked fairly well.
I remember that ring/thing but I remember it not working well for me and I have lost it over the years. These guns would slow down after 10 rounds or less, no fun at all. So I reamed the cylinder and made a collar to fit, had to relieve the bottom of the breach. I tapered the collar a little so I did not have to remove as much metal from the barrel...Did this all with a hand drill, dremel, and home made jig...If I silver soldered the ring to the cylinder it would probably run a little longer but it's easy to clean this way and works good enough.. I did both guns the same...
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(https://mail-attachment.googleusercontent.com/attachment/u/0/?ui=2&ik=78b63e894e&attid=0.1&permmsgid=msg-f:1823207214143968885&th=194d554d2efb1675&view=att&zw&disp=safe&saddbat=ANGjdJ9-U6gJ1atXlyRF4GptR9gcAdn0okCjRE1jX4QTPR6NeX-aat76M2jRdYrUff90WONausCdvjLzPXGNjBU4LqGWhi_V_RZKYjoBIOIlkRlmMARmUeGAK4zZbzdwLf8lEE3nFP6ZnxlLd6e9UksGZSKxKeJzpMvt3oG0XC3nco__5FKnZFPpZfr7WCOVZib9kbuwaR4ku-8vfkAhFOOT9nDCxYdChApQKk7jVsKFSiXF1zgG0h3O7PJ-i70Av1GY2mY0H6hA04EiRv3bWcpIT_fF78MGsqauzouGPuCzdnZwRpnlFXKeDPht37sZfBqOhYUXfWUvwMPzXNHJAENcvPvL5T_LoCq2bvLI627-Hr5tczypWs7TuZ3k-JzQMxFnk-w9pN_mUDZkMm1NjELiAiiDjvaXjRH4YmOipBTvMjq22XAXzgUoskrLvQuS4Lyy3dGs0N5csGtIhIthdhFbH-98eO-2xz9QRTDct3P--qkKp7_pGkmGvZ2jJGqOFys2r8N-zqabOK7EDCaybZeugIbxYWV6HRnmALzi-pSdGs1z3zc6Eq7iMjv46RmAqyUBtUALRrO5GfLsBEn02I4LMmRM0i7vf0u6LHC8Y6qQwcg_xc6muYbIOeAJ-TXhfqP-vGl3Za_6l1AQ1HU5uPyHMnhHYDC9eatkBPca2aIn8_2N7AUrkbdZoaGgoWtuIz-jPVRwMGbHBYryeeHPFRoEc-8EYW1x-n5AlY6nhC_22sNjtSG0PH-QLCQXjNhnZfGIzi0Z7E4Yq2m9K9m4QcfMtD8XCcF1t48hlemStJOeAcu-BBOxQEEXFvcoKoGrG8ANPHXUggi4-8v9mcbb06jOgpEhw1Zq-UE54mYi9Pn7UfTgV62S5FJ9qeWZSW4B9qxTEGZm3nZAdNFMo_tgwP9Ny-lMAGiKUQjfZuBZgIxL4oaJj9i1DOin0SpHsaqPP_gxLChbubWxPIoCOE-kvKPis5CWdmoMaOaiF4Fq5lRfucmenLd1vpCT3_8HNxTGTH_I9NLwNolWF_GteBeU)
:) HI 1860 ;)
Atz why I said it work'd "fairly well." After three or four stages of a CAS match, I'd have to pull the Barrel assembly and clean under the little ring thingie and the Cylinder at the Arbor. Kind of a Nuisance it twas. I did however keep the little ring thingies with the guns (that had them) when I sold them on.
I was sorely tempted to make up a set of "real" gas rings, Ala the Uberti Open Top as you describe, but received several offer for the guns I just couldn't refuse. Away they went.
I was at the Harrisburg show yesterday and looked at a couple Taylor RM conversions..Guns felt solid, indexed and timed good...but no gas ring...and 750.00!!!
No Joy for me.
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Quote from: 1860 on February 06, 2025, 05:35:28 AMI was at the Harrisburg show yesterday and looked at a couple Taylor RM conversions..Guns felt solid, indexed and timed good...but no gas ring...and 750.00!!!
No Joy for me.
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I don't understand that at all, the fact that you had them in your hands and didn't see that the Richards-Masons all have gas rings. I have '51s and '60. The '60 gas rings and barrel "forcing cones" are shorter than the '51's but are there and they all run just fine with BP.
:) PLUS ONE for Abilene ;)
Unless something at Uberti has drastically changed, ALL Uberti built R/M conversions have "Gas Rings" although it is not a separate "Part" or "Bushing." The "Gas Ring" is integral to the cylinder. It doesn't necessarily "look" like a Gas Ring, but it is.
Yes, my 72 opentop has the gas ring, it spins with the cylinder. I checked both guns for indexing by holding my thumb on the cylinder while cocking it slowly..and I was looking at the front of the cylinder/pin area...the cylinder obviously moved but I did not see anything in front of it moving with it. Then I half cocked the 61 and slowly moved the cylinder...same result... Now my eyes are at least as old as I am and that's over 70 so I could have missed it. I'm going to dig my 72 out of the safe and try it the same way to see what I can see.
This was at a busy gun show where the light was probably not the best and honestly I was not really interested in the guns anyway, I don't care for the sight picture on RMs and don't need any more cowboy guns...
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They probably keep the lights dim in the gun shows on purpose! :D
For most CAS I don't use the hammer notch for sighting, I just put the front sight on top of the hammer, otherwise yeah that notch is pretty tiny.
Quote from: 1860 on February 06, 2025, 05:40:10 PM.... don't need any more cowboy guns...
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Hmmm, if we all followed that statement :-\
Heavens
Fire and brimstone coming down from the skies! Rivers and seas boiling!
40 years of darkness! Earthquakes, volcanoes!
The dead rising from the grave!
Human sacrifice, cats and dogs living together, mass hysteria!
To quote a movie phrase ;D
:D
I was wondering if somebody could interpret that phrase into English, because it's unintelligible to me. Simply can't understand it.
Well, a couple things...
I don't shoot CAS, I shoot cans, steel, bowling pins, and etc., I require a decent sight picture and an accurate gun to have fun.
As far as needing more Cowboy guns, I've been through most of the Cap n Ball revolvers made and have settled on 3, Not a fan of SAA or Rems_(still have one or two)- but have Open tops that work great. My lever gun addiction started in the 60s-(The opening scene of Lawman when he tosses a Winchester to Johnny)- and they start around 1880 to present day repos and I shoot all of them, even deer hunt with a 120 year old 38-55... Shotguns, I have a couple old doubles, one with hammers, I have a 97winchester I built from parts that came out great, I use it for deer with buckshot, I shoot sporting clays and skeet with a 12 & 20 Browning A-5.. See the pattern, I like old guns, even my modern guns are old, like me. If I get another gun something else will stop being used, and guns are there to be shot. Plus I have two girls who will have no idea what to do with them when I check out...
Then there are Old cars, Motor cycles, that demand my time, even my fishing boat is 50 years old and still going strong...and my daily driver is 30... lol
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Just almost needed CPR. And AED. Goodness Gracious. OofDa.
60, I don't have kids, but my siblings or whoever is left has to deal with my armory so I have made a list of everything with the current price they should be worth. Makes me feel a little better knowing it will ease their burden somewhat :)
30 year old daily driver? It's becoming a classic and probably starting to inflate in value. ;D
It's good you can still enjoy these old irons.